Convert to 8-frame decision

[omnimirage]

I plan to expand my operation and build many more beehives. I'm developing back problems at too young of an age, and I struggle to lift a full 10 frame honey super. I've also noticed that the bees don't tend to fill the outer frames of a deep, 10 frame super. It's evident to me that deep, 10 frame supers are not optimal for honey production. The use of them seems most suitable for a system involving queen bee excluders, with the deeps being used for the brood chamber. They may be ideal when using queen excluders, but I feel queen excluders are not ideal for anything other than comb production, but I'm really unsure. Investing in deep 10s, the standard, seems none-worthwhile. From what I've been reading, 10 frame seems to be the standard due to how the Langstroth Hive was originally designed, it was arbitrarily made a 10 frame system. Many people seem to be converting towards an 8 frame system. It seems overall, advantageous, on the account of the deep size for 10 frames being too large and inflexible for my tastes.

I note that 10 frame mediums are just about as heavy as 8 frame deeps. I simulated this weight and lifted it, and found it to be quite heavy but manageable, just at my peak. Something to take into consideration, is 8 frame system tends to encourage building upwards, rather than expanding sideways. In Australia, I believe beekeepers often need to transport hives around: it might be easier for me if they weren't as tall when doing so. Furthermore, I have most of my beehives at a good sight (my property) that has a big ant problem: I've needed to put the beehives on a stand to redeem such, my big 10 frame 4 deep beehive might be too tall as an 8 frame hive, and the hive could still grow yet.

Where I live, 10 frames is the standard. I'm interested in building beehives and selling my inventory to the public, so conforming to the 10 frame standard may be better for business. I may be able to find more profitable deals on gumtree, if I'm seeking 10 frames, instead of 8 frames. I already own about 30 supers for 10 frame deeps. I have large ambitions in beekeeping, and if an 8 frame setup is better for me, I'd rather invest in such now, before I'm too committed towards 10 frames.

[little john]

Interesting post.   I'll chuck my 2-pennyworth into the ring, just in case it's relevant.

You mention your back, and you mention selling to the public.  My thoughts on this are: how you run your operation, and how other people run their operations, need not necessarily be the same - you can always build for yourself, and build something else for others.

Let's take 'backs' first ...  I'm 6'4" and getting close to 70, so I know this one only too well.  When pulling honey, frames can always be pulled one at a time and placed in a smaller carry-home box - you don't HAVE to pull a whole super all in one go.

I have several Long Hives, and they are a great format from this point-of-view - all operations being carried out at a comfortable working height - and no lifting of boxes.  Sure, those with more conventional vertical/expandable hives wouldn't want to buy such boxes, but that's what I mean by "building for yourself, and building something else for others".  As long as the Long Hives are built to take the same frames, then frames & bees remain commodities which can be sold to those with more conventional hive formats.

I often hear people debating whether to move from 10's to 8's and from deeps to mediums, and so on ...  It's hard for me to comment on these sizes, as we Brits have a totally different set-up - our brood boxes being square and 11-frame (either 9" (standard) or 12" deep, with supers all being 6" deep) - but my own solution to potential back problems has been to slice all but the bottom boxes down the middle, in order to make half-size boxes which (of course) have half the weight.

This is not my idea, but one championed by Mike Palmer - who uses 4-frame boxes, whereas mine are 5-frame.  Indeed, 5-frame boxes are fast becoming my 'standard' around the apiary - used on their own as nuc-boxes, or in pairs sitting on top of the full-width brood boxes (which are no longer lifted) of my full-sized hives.

So - my suggestion is that it's always worth considering half-width-sized boxes (for anyone making their own woodware), along with the more usual choices of box size.

LJ

[Michael Bush]

After 26 years or so with ten frame deeps and shallows, first I changed to all mediums.  It was a huge relief on my back.  Then I decided to go one more step and go to eight frame mediums.  I have never regretted it.

[yes2matt]

From a marketing perspective, you've described a niche in your locale, and you have personal motive to reach into it. Maybe you could be the "go-to-guy" for 8-frame gear?

[little john]

There may be a niche there, there may not - the only way to know for sure is for the OP to make a few boxes and try to sell them at a price he'd be happy with.

If I were in the making-woodenware-for-an-income game, then I'd avoid any item which is currently being mass-produced by outfits buying timber in bulk and employing automatic machinery, and thus being sold at low prices.  That means frames, and Langstroth boxes.

I'd be tempted to test-out the hobbyist-beekeeper market instead, with a range of Top Bar Hives & Nuc Boxes; Warre Hives; and even the WBC Hive which, although relatively expensive and complicated to make, certainly looks the part in those carefully tended suburban gardens where appearance is paramount.  Indeed, I'd consider making ANY design of hive where quality of construction and presenting appearance become the major selling points, rather than price and functionality.

LJ

[yes2matt]

I'd be tempted to test-out the hobbyist-beekeeper market instead, with a range of Top Bar Hives & Nuc Boxes; Warre Hives; and even the WBC Hive which, although relatively expensive and complicated to make, certainly looks the part in those carefully tended suburban gardens where appearance is paramount.  Indeed, I'd consider making ANY design of hive where quality of construction and presenting appearance become the major selling points, rather than price and functionality.

LJ

How cool would it bee to sell obs hives to docs offices and montessori schools, and a monthly maintenance contract on top?

I've thought of the hobbyist/ boutique market for my own situation. 

[KeyLargoBees]

its already being done...same sort of service that sets up and maintains saltwater aquariums...saw it on FB but cant find the link at this time ;-P

[omnimirage]

Great information guys. Main interest with selling Langstroth Hives is that I'm already manafacturing them for myself, as the local beekeeping supply yard charges a great deal. It isn't finicially feasible with my bank balance to buy off him, he wants $27 for an unassembled super. I bought wood from a local hardware store awhile ago, and made a bunch of supers, took about an hour to make one, and cost about $10 in supplies. I essentially worked for minimum wage doing such, which is attractive considering I'm mostly unemployed.

I remember talking to the local beekeeping supply yard man, and I commented on how he's always saying the price of things are rising. He said in turn that the people he purchases these things from are raising their prices due to a general inflatation, and he needs to then charge more to the general public to make up for it. I remember him saying how people come to him to buy things, and when they hear about the prices, they sort of get a sad, depressed look on their faces. It was a weird exchange.

I also note that the general trade site, Gumtree, has more ads from people looking to buy things than actual people selling, and the people who are selling are charging absurd prices ($7 for a single frame, they're worth $1.50 unassembled from the local dude).  I figure I can, for now, seek to build as much as I can, then sell off extras that I have. If I'm getting into such a position, I could make a tidy profit providing people with all sorts, from supers, to frames, bees, bee equipment like hivetools and smokers. The local person charges $86 for a smoker: I can order one online for $30, and sell it on Gumtree for $60. I'd be the only one on the site, and undercutting the local guys massively, whilst making a good profit.

I'm not actually clever with woodwork. My supers that I made are having stability issues. I've learned from my experiment, though. The tradesmen's wood glue I bought was useless, it dried up and did nothing in a year's time. The nails I used were not long enough and sufficient. I have a free supply of screws, so I'm going to use them. Once my skills develop, exploring other beehive models is a fascinating and great idea.

[yes2matt]

I saw this, and thought it was worth reviving an old convo. These folks are selling bees by the half-frame. Zowee! https://squareup.com/store/eco-hive-solutions-co/

[SlickMick]

Very interesting site, Matt

Mick

[OPAVP]

Hi guys,

I use shallow boxes/frames in an eight frame set up.
My question: How many brood boxes  would a good queen need?

Mr.Bush,can you answer that for mr please?

Thanks a lot.
Cor Van Pelt.

[cao]

I have some medium eight frame hives. I plan on them using 3 boxes for brood.  With shallows I would plan on 4.  It may differ by location.

[Colobee]

I run all mediums. I have a fair amount of 10 frame equipment but have also begun shifting to 8 frames. The solution for utilizing both is as simple as adding "outrigger" strips - ~ 1-1/8" wide ( by ~1/2 of a 2x4 - so ~1-3/4") along the bottom length of each side of a transitional 8 frame box.

These transitional 8's are no big deal - they end up stacking just like a 10 frame box. Actually, I run 2-10's and an 8 for my year round brood chamber/overwintering base, so I don't even have to stack them - just leave them as the top of 3 medium boxes. For some reason the picture posting function won't work for me - I've tried repeatedly.

To make this work, just center an 8 frame box on a 10 frame box, and attach a strip to the outside bottom of the 8 frame box to fill the gaps on either side.  After giving it WAY too much thought, that's what I did. I can center rip a 2x4 on a slight angle and end up with a stout "outrigger" for the transitional 8's. The slight angle gives the outrigger a bit of a slant on the top to help shed rain & melting snow.

There's absolutely NO reason the same thing wouldn't work for deeps, or any other combination.

[Michael Bush]

>I use shallow boxes/frames in an eight frame set up.
>My question: How many brood boxes  would a good queen need?

Tem frames, eight frames, deeps and mediums I can do in my head.  I've never done the math on shallows.  There is almost nothing I can't get in mediums.  There is almost nothing I CAN get in shallows... 

Do the math.  Calculate the volume of a deep and calculate the volume of a shallow.  Length x Width x Depth = Volume

[Oblio13]

>I use shallow boxes/frames in an eight frame set up.
>My question: How many brood boxes  would a good queen need?

Tem frames, eight frames, deeps and mediums I can do in my head.  I've never done the math on shallows.  There is almost nothing I can't get in mediums.  There is almost nothing I CAN get in shallows... 

Do the math.  Calculate the volume of a deep and calculate the volume of a shallow.  Length x Width x Depth = Volume

I keep it simple by using what I think of as "vertical inches of comb". Frames are all the same length, but a deep is 9", a medium is 6" and a shallow is 3". So a ten-frame deep is 10 X 9 = 90 vertical inches of comb. An eight-frame medium is 8 X 6 = 48. A five-frame deep is 5 x 9 = 45.

[cao]

Frames are all the same length, but a deep is 9", a medium is 6" and a shallow is 3". 

Was that a typo?  A shallow is 5".

[OPAVP]

Hi guys,
Actually, a shallow up here is 6" deep.  Nice warm day here 33 degrees C today. What is that on your scale?

Cheers.
Cor Van Pelt