requeening mean hive

KeyLargoBees · April 20, 2016, 06:01:03 PM

Glad I could be of help :-)

CliveHive · April 23, 2016, 07:23:56 PM

- - - in fact - - they were so quiet, I wondered if they had found a way to escape, or died - - -

They answered the question as soon as I let them out - - - it sounded like a jet turbine winding up - - - and they were really, reallt happy to see me - - - NOT!

CliveHive · April 28, 2016, 11:25:12 AM

I am finding I am not alone with my Africanized bees - -

When I picked-up 2 Buckfast queens in Navasota, TX, I had a chance to talk with an experienced beekeeper from Waco who told me a bit about his experience with Africanized bees - - - . He tried re-queening - - and re-re-queening - - when the original re-queen was at first accepted, but later killed and replaced with an African queen - - . I did not ask how many times he had seen that (wish I had) but he has given up on trying to raise tame bees. His hives are in a remote area, and he likes the rapid build-up and honey production of the Africanized strain - - - . It seems to me, that is just hastening the spread of the little buggers, but it is not likely whatever he does is likely to make much difference. Waco, by the way, is in the northern part of Texas - - about the same longitude as the bottom third of Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia - - .

When I got back to Corpus Christi, I had an extra queen, and sold it to a local gal who told me this story - - - . She bought a nuc, and started a hive, and all was well - - until it wasn't. A third party called to let her know her bees appeared to be 'fighting', although they may have just been doing orientation flights - - - I asked if there were dead bees around the hive - - no - - but her bees were noticeably more aggressive and she couldn't find the queen. She thinks the hive may have been invaded by Africanized bees, and wanted my marked Buckfast to make sure. She will do a thorough search for her queen, kill it, and replace it with the marked queen so she will know in future if that queen is still in play.

As for my hive, on April 24, 32 days after re-queen, I inspected the hive, dropped on a queen excluder, and 10-frame brood box with 2 frames of brood, a frame of capped and uncapped honey and 1 partially drawn-out comb. Bees are as aggressive as ever. I know there are still house bees from the old queen, and the field bees are old strain, but I had hoped to see some improvement. Weather continues to be stormy, unsettled, low pressure system sitting on us - - might have something to do with it - - -

The question is this - - -

Is the African strain actively hunting-out non-Africanized colonies, and replacing peaceful queens?
I am getting the impression that wild swarms in this part of the country are very likely to be Africanized to some extent, but I don't have a feel for "Africanized" - - if that is a "Yes/No" proposition, or if there are degrees of "Africanization".

I will try another round of re-queen with marked queens if I don't have tame hives by the end of May - - 68 days after original re-queen. My first re-queen was an Italian from Florida, who are also in the Africanized zone, so there is the possibility I have replaced one hot queen for another - - - .

Trying to sort through it - - Suggestions welcome. I'll go to my first Coastal Bend Beekeeper's Association May 5, and should get some good hints there - - will keep you posted

Michael Bush · April 28, 2016, 11:57:08 AM

>Is the African strain actively hunting-out non-Africanized colonies, and replacing peaceful queens?
I am getting the impression that wild swarms in this part of the country are very likely to be Africanized to some extent, but I don't have a feel for "Africanized" - - if that is a "Yes/No" proposition, or if there are degrees of "Africanization".

I have seen the spectrum from workable to ferocious.

Keep in mind that for 200 years we have been breeding our EHB to be reproductively disadvantaged. We wanted less swarming and less drones. We got it. So the Africanized bees, which were never selected to be reproductively disadvantaged, have out reproduced our great breeding experiment...

>I will try another round of re-queen with marked queens if I don't have tame hives by the end of May - - 68 days after original re-queen. My first re-queen was an Italian from Florida, who are also in the Africanized zone, so there is the possibility I have replaced one hot queen for another - - - .

Keep in mind that an F1 cross of your EHB and a local AHB will be much more vicious than simply an AHB. I'd stick with local bees and cull for aggressiveness...

GSF · April 28, 2016, 02:19:52 PM

I have a total of 38 colonies. About 6 of them has got to go. They come looking for someone to sting. If you go 50-100 yards from their hive you'll get stung. OMG, at the build up! You can identify the mean hives because they are the tallest.

CliveHive · April 28, 2016, 09:44:51 PM

Just back from my hive and started getting 'buzzed' about 60' away by a couple advanced guards - - -
They were not 'extreme' and did not call for reinforcements.

When it came time to 'pop-the-top' they were meaner than ever. This is my first dance, so I don't have a feel for 'workable to ferocious'. When I returned, my gloves looked like they had been sprinkled with pepper, I caught 5 -or 6 stings around the wrist (leather gloves, with heavy canvas gauntlets) and a couple on the crown of my head where the 'cap' got too close to my skull.

I got the top box off, inserted the new queen candy-box, and moved it to a new base in the position of the old box - - - moved the old box (with (I hope) the old queen) about 50 yards away. There were guys working about 250' away, and I didn't want them getting stung, so I shut-it-down for the night. Will go back tomorrow and finish moving the old box to its' new location, another 50 yards away from the old site. (It turns out the old site was/is objectionable to the owner) The new box will eventually move to a new location about 5 miles from the present site. Both old and new boxes were full of bees

You follow that? I am living it, and it is confusing to me - - -

Thanks, Michael, but I'm missing it. Could you dumb-it-down for me? "Keep in mind that an F1 cross of your EHB and a local AHB will be much more vicious than simply an AHB. I'd stick with local bees, and cull for aggressiveness - - " EHB/AHB cross more aggressive? Then why re-queen?

So EHB = European Honey Bee?
AHB = Africanized Honey Bee?

I got what I thought were 'tame'-bred queens to calm down the wild locals - - - I might have been heading in the wrong direction? What do I do now? I've got two colonies, one that I re-queened on March 24 that is still mean as hell, and one ( a split from the first) where I introduced a new queen today. How do I cull for aggressiveness? Who are these people who are working their hives without gloves, and inviting their bees to dinner? How do you do that?

I have a line on a new location that is about 2 miles from the nearest human, and four or five miles from the present site. I was supposed to get a tour and keys to the gate this morning, but the land owner had an illness in his family - - it may be a few days. When it is available, I will move both colonies there, where all I have to worry about is me - - - but - - I'm missing a plan - - - Help.

PS - - one more piece to consider - - -

My new site will probably be big enough for a dozen colonies, and it is 'remote' - - - except when the surrounding fields are being tilled or harvested. Even then it will be some distance from the working machinery - - but - - it is machinery/mowing noise that triggers fatal bee attacks around here. They are rare, but they happen once or twice/year - - - one this year about a month ago - - -
Looked for Elmore County on Google Earth - - - you are a good bit north of me, GSF.

So about the 6 - - what does 'got to go' mean? Throw a garbage bag over the hive, and light-off a gopher gasser? As much as I would hate to do that, if that is the option, then I can handle it. These little buggers are not responding to therapy.

There are a couple of big commercial operations about 100 miles north of here - - I will make a trip or two, and see what they have to say, if they are seeing the problem, and how they are handling it. Any info in the mean time will be welcome. I'd hate to dump my first two colonies and start over with commercial nucs - - - but that could be the best/only option - - -

cao · April 29, 2016, 12:51:37 AM

Quote from: CliveHive on April 28, 2016, 09:44:51 PM

Who are these people who are working their hives without gloves, and inviting their bees to dinner? How do you do that?

Sorry I can't help you with your mean hive situation. I usually work mine in shorts, t-shirt with a hat and veil. And yes I have never worn gloves. Luckily I don't have to worry about AHB in my location. The angriest my bees have gotten is a few head butts to my veil. I do get stung, but its usually my fault for smashing them. Hope you get them calmed down soon.

GSF · April 29, 2016, 08:33:37 AM

By got to go I mean requeen or relocate.

I talked to my state inspector yesterday. I described my situation to him. He said that he's pretty sure they are not Africanized by the fact they are storing a ton of honey. He also said folks don't realize just how mean European bees can get.

Most of my hives I don't have to wear gloves, and at times can take my veil off to look closer(clearer). On the other hand, if they wrap me up because I popped the top then something's going to change.

Michael Bush · April 29, 2016, 12:52:54 PM

>So EHB = European Honey Bee?
>AHB = Africanized Honey Bee?

Yes, and yes.

>I got what I thought were 'tame'-bred queens to calm down the wild locals - - - I might have been heading in the wrong direction?

Quite possible.

>What do I do now?

I would not tolerate mean bees. But you have options. If you have a nice hive, you can introduce the queen from the nice hive to the mean hive (after removing the old queen, of course). If you've already had issues requeening the hot hive I would remove the queen, wait a week and destroy every queen cell and then introduce the new queen. Dividing, of course, makes all of this work better as they will be calmer. Local nice queens would be my first choice, so if you don't have one, maybe someone locally will sell you some queens.

>He also said folks don't realize just how mean European bees can get.

True. I think the vicious bees back in the late 1800s were F1 hybrids of the Italians and the "German Black Bees" (Amm)

BeeMaster2 · April 29, 2016, 12:59:50 PM

I used to frequent a bee site that was mostly European Beekeepers. After mentioning that I was not using any protection, they uniformally acted like I was being irresponsible and crazy. They all talked like they always wear 100 percent protection including heavy gloves. Sounded like their bees were a lot meaner than ours or they (because of using thick gloves) created meaner gloves.
Jim

CliveHive · April 30, 2016, 09:43:25 PM

GSF - Followed your advice and re-located - - split, and re-queened the new hive - - - New location is well away from civilization, so I can work out my mean bee problem without fear of harming anyone. A couple of miles of grain fields, followed by a half-mile grove of mesquite (that happened to have a small abandoned horse lot, perfect for hives) followed by three miles of cotton fields, about three weeks away from blossoming.

Thanks Michael - - I'm learning. The F1 split appears not to have helped at all, but I will wait until 26May, 9 weeks after re-queen in the original hive, to admit defeat, and re- re-. At that point. I will have two choices: a local queen, as you suggest - - or a Californian Wildflower Meadows Italian. I will be searching for a gentle local queen - - - - .

In the mean time, we'll see how Bee Weaver's Buckfast/Italian hybrid works out in the split. (Introduced April 27 - - - so end of June before final results are in there - - - . Looks like my first season will be a 'learning experience' for me - - - not without some pain - - .

On the plus side, these mean guys propagate like crazy. I expect they will be at full battalion strengths in time for the cotton blossom honey flow - - - .

Hey Jim - -
I had to reinforce my gloves with duct tape if I didn't want to get stung - - that worked but the duct tape pulled off a chunk or two that had a high concentration of stingers, so now I'm hunting for a new pair - - - maybe the ssteel mesh the oyster shuckers use under a conventional pair?
Follow the thread (please). I am a bone-head, but follow direction well. I'm determined to have nice hives :)

KeyLargoBees · May 01, 2016, 09:21:22 AM

I didnt know you could use the words "nice bees" and "South Texas" in the same sentence :-)

CliveHive · May 01, 2016, 09:28:50 AM

I'd never heard the term until Michael Bush used it. In S. Texas those are the ones who smile while they are stinging you - - -

CliveHive · May 01, 2016, 08:59:04 PM

The two hives - - original and split - - are in their new location - - - separated from each other by about 20'

The split is full of active bees, and appears to be doing well. I had not removed all the cork from the candy box, and bees were unable to free the queen - - so she had been in the box8 days today. She was alive and well. Evidently the bees fed her through the screen and I freed her today - - -

The original hive was in pretty bad shape - - - . The hive was full of dead bees, there was a small ant infestation, and quite a few hive beetles. I installed a top feeder and will return tomorrow, install beetle traps, and put the stand on oil-filled containers for the ants - - but this looks to my un-trained eye like major decline. I may have lost too many bees during the split, or during transportation to the new site. Maybe took too much brood or honey for the split - - ?? The queen appeared healthy and active. There was brood in various stages of development, but it dd not look healthy/glossy/well cared-for. I saw two cells that appeared to have the caps removed and dead bees in the cells - - - maybe just not enough bees to care for the hive, but why??

Suggestions?

CliveHive · May 02, 2016, 06:36:15 AM

Re-reading and rethinking this and quite a few other posts, it looks like the queen has stopped laying. That would account for the 'dull' look of the old brood - - and let me know the queen is probably getting ready to abscond with what is left of the original hive.

What went wrong? I think Jeff nailed it in post 31 - - - I rushed my split - - too early - - not enough brood, or not enough stores to feed two colonies and keep them healthy. I didn't leave enough honey in the original hive, and the bees starved. That all fits - - and I could go on and beat myself up quite awhile, but I would rather get that hive back on track.

So - -

1. Capture the queen
2. Clean the hive - remove dead bees, salvage built-out comb.
3. Add new bees
4. Introduce old queen and look for acceptance
5. Release queen & start again

??

KeyLargoBees · May 02, 2016, 07:39:11 AM

The old hive has the nasty queen? If so pinch her and dont let her leave with the remaiing bees.....leave them queen less and then recombine them together with a newspaper combine after they have been queen-less for a few days.....voila nasty hive problem solved....takes em back to a single hive and prevents the abscond.....then split a little later down the road when they build up and llet them build a new queen with the better genetics.

Or am i missing info?

CliveHive · May 02, 2016, 08:57:35 AM

Ahhhh - - No. You have it, but Im' not sure I am thinking about this right - - -

The "old" queen was/is the first re-queen and started laying eggs around 39 days ago - - So "most" all of the house bees
are from her, but the field bees are still mostly from her mean predecessor - - - including the ones in the healthy hive split - -
so it is difficult to know whether she is producing mean bees. The ones in the healthy split still like to sting, but they seem
less determined to kill me. No way of knowing for sure which queen the uglies came from.

Bottom line is I'm not 100% sure she is the problem - - - Why take a chance? Well. That is a good question. Why take a chance.
Because I have 39 days invested in seeing if this queen is any good, and a new queen comes with the same questions - - . A new
queen from local stock will mate with local wild bees, which are generally pretty testy - - - . Decisions, decisions.

If that isn't complicated enough, I ordered 2 Italian queens from Wildflower Meadows (Southern California) in mid-March that will be
delivered May 11. There will be people at the meeting on the 5th who will be pleased to have them, so I am not concerned with them
going to waste, but at this point I have to make a decision and get on with it - - -

After all my fussing - - - what do you think? Still going with pinch the queen, put the remaining bees in the split-box, re-do the split
later, and let them produce a queen??

BeeMaster2 · May 02, 2016, 12:26:03 PM

Clive,
How many boxes of bees do you now have in your strong hive?
Do you have a spare hive box or nuc ready to go that you could make a new hive from?
If you have an extra hive and more than one box of bees, you could make a split and give the one of the new queens some bees in nuc or hive and have her ready in case the old queen is mean. It is always good to have a nuc ready to go if one of your hives has a queen problem.
Jim

CliveHive · May 02, 2016, 01:02:48 PM

The strong hive has one deep box, and a new queen. The one with the questionable queen is the one that is failing. The immediate question is what to do with that box, and the queen that is in it, and the concern is that that queen has stopped laying, and likely to abscond.

I think I will go with Jeff's suggestion - - kill off the questionable queen, wait a few days, newspaper transfer the remaining bees from the questionable hive to the strong hive, wailt until it is strong enough for a second box, and then re-try the split.

Brood in the failed box looks like it may be dead - - - what should be saved, and what should be cleaned-up and discarded? Save the drawn-out comb, clean-up the dead bees, and scrape/clean anything that looks dead?

PhilK · May 02, 2016, 09:14:44 PM

Quote from: CliveHive on May 02, 2016, 01:02:48 PMBrood in the failed box looks like it may be dead - - - what should be saved, and what should be cleaned-up and discarded? Save the drawn-out comb, clean-up the dead bees, and scrape/clean anything that looks dead?

Pinch the old queen and get rid of dead bees, but I wouldn't bother with scraping out the brood that looks dead. Do the newspaper combine and let the house bees do the undertaking and cleaning - they'll do a better job than we could!