Splitting hive advice

devehf · April 02, 2016, 01:51:00 PM

Hello,
I just inherited a hive from a friend who is no longer able to keep bees. My mentor has been busy and not able to come over and I think I really need to take action today. So I am looking for some advice here.

I have one hive which is made up of two deeps. The queen looks healthy. There is plenty of brood and a nice pattern. I have found what I think are swarm cells.
[attachment=1][/attachment]

I would like to split this hive into another couple of empty deeps that I have also inherited.

My question is, can I simply move the frames with the swarm cells from the existing hive along with a couple of brood frames and some nurse bees and call it good? Or is there a high risk that the queen go out to mate and never come back?

Another question: Should I divide the hive into a smaller box like a nuc box?

I really feel like I need to do something now or miss out on the dividing opportunity. The weather has been warm and will continue to be, here in Southern Idaho.

Thanks!

Dave

iddee · April 02, 2016, 10:13:53 PM

You will want to move the queen and a couple brood frames and a food frame or two. Leave a queen cell, or more, in the original hive. Then you can take a cell frame, a couple brood frames, and a couple food frames and make another nuc if you want.

The queen is going to move, whether you do it or she swarms. Once a lady makes up her mind to do something, there's no changing it. If you are married, you already know that.

devehf · April 03, 2016, 12:30:32 AM

Thanks, Iddee.

I spoke to my mentor over the phone and had our local bee supply guy come over and help me inspect. He suggested waiting to split until the hive was stronger. So we cut out the swarm cells, cleaned things up and moved things around. We switched the vertical order of the deeps. I also added a feeding frame and a gallon of 1:1 syrup with a healthy bee additive. There were a lot of signs of nosema.

OldMech · April 03, 2016, 04:42:10 AM

Good chance as Iddee said that the queen will swarm anyhow, if she already hasnt, did you see her while you were in there??
Your cheapest insurance would have been to make up a nuc in a 5 frame box, so if she did swarm despite your removal of the cells, you would still be able to provide a viable queen.
My experiences are dictated primarily by my bad luck. I used up all my good luck just to survive my youth, so now whenever there is a worst case scenario... Thats what I have to plan for. I DO very much hope your luck is still with you and all goes exactly as planned!

BeeMaster2 · April 05, 2016, 01:01:42 PM

It is never a good idea to remove all of the swarm cells especially if they are capped. More than likely the queen has already left.
Jim

KeyLargoBees · April 06, 2016, 12:10:14 PM

If the hive is "too weak to split" there is a decent chance they were supercedure cells and not swarm cells.....if so the girls are unhappy with the existing queen and removing cells and rearranging the furniture isn't going to stop them and they will just build more queen cells to get rid of what they see as an inferior queen.

devehf · April 19, 2016, 07:50:37 AM

UPDATE: On Sunday April 10 I checked my original hive that I was planning to split. There were no swarm cells and the hive seemed much healthier. I was amazed at how much had changed in one week. Is this possible that the hive produced lots of comb and honey in one week? All the syrup was consumed. No swarm cells.

On Saturday April 16 I treated for Verroa with an oxalic acid vaporizer. I had a swarm on Sunday April 17. I collected the swarm and dropped them in a nuc box with 4 frames from the original hive containing brood, honey, pollen, swarm cells and a feeder frame with 1 gal. 1:1 syrup and healthy bee additive. I could not find a virgin queen with this swarm, but I suspect there is one. I found the old queen on the ground by the old hive. I put her back in the old hive. There were swarm cells in several frames in the old hive. Was this a good move to put the old queen back in her old hive?

Then I noticed that the nuc was overloaded with bees. They were amassed all over the front of the nuc box.

So I set up a 10 deep brood box with 3 frames of brood, honey, pollen, swarm cells with the idea to combine the nuc and this new box. I cannot figure out how to do this. I can't even get to the frames in the nuc because they are so tight and I'm afraid I might hurt a virgin queen who might be in there. I tried brushing bees from the top of the nuc box frames and front into a cardboard nuc box but that was too difficult. When I dumped whatever I could brush into the cardboard box into the new 10 deep, I think they just flew back to the nuc.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Any advice on how to combine an overcrowded nuc into a roomier 10 deep?

GSF · April 19, 2016, 08:15:26 AM

That's too crowded for a colony. Move them anyway, just be careful. When you remove the first frame(the one that would cause less damage) lift it straight up. Be careful not to make the sides/ends of the frame squash bees against the wall of the box. Good luck and keep us posted, that's some good looking bees.

BeeMaster2 · April 19, 2016, 12:40:57 PM

"Any advice on how to combine an overcrowded nuc into a roomier 10 deep?"
One easy way would be to add a nuc super to the top of this box and let them move into the super. then you will bee able to see better and take this original box to move them.
If the bottom is removable, you could remove it and place it on top af a 10 frame box and let them move down. Just cut a board to cover the other half of the ten frame box.
Jim

BeeMaster2 · April 19, 2016, 12:43:07 PM

"Was this a good move to put the old queen back in her old hive?"
you always want to move the old queen to the new hive to make the bees think they have swarmed. This slows down the swarming instinct.
Jim
P.S. Nice Nuc.

KeyLargoBees · April 19, 2016, 05:19:11 PM

if you found her out on the ground....with only a few attendants chances are she was failing and was being superseded...happened to me earlier this year on a swarm.....hived them in a NUC with drawn comb and she laid for about a week and laid up one side of a frame....and then found her out on the ground with like 8 attendants....put her back in....she was out on the ground again the next day again but the ants had got to her before I did...so she ended up in the alchohol...I let them be to see if they would build emergency cells from the eggs she had laid...and went in a few days later to check for cups and voila there was a queen in the hive and she was laying like crazy...she was probably a tag along virgin in the swarm that the hive liked better and then booted the old tired girl out.....every day its something new and I just shake my head and file it away.

OldMech · April 21, 2016, 12:50:57 AM

What Sawdstmaker said.. add another nuc box to the top of that with frames in it, maybe even TWO as many bees are in there, let them spread out so you can remove the frames with a little more safety..

devehf · April 21, 2016, 01:06:26 AM

Sawdstmaker, you sir, are a genius.

Here is what I was able to fashion yesterday.
[attachment=0][/attachment]
Worked like a charm.

Today I inspected and found THE OLD QUEEN in the new hive! I looked for eggs but didn't find any. No swarm cells. This hive still seems crowded to me. I suspect I will need to add a full 10 deep brood box soon to replace the nuc box.

I have not inspected the old hive yet.

BeeMaster2 · April 21, 2016, 12:29:02 PM

I'm glad it helped.

Jim

devehf · May 02, 2016, 10:47:05 PM

Well the hybrid nuc/deep hive is doing well. The old queen is still laying and I see uncapped larvae. There are lots of swarm cells. This queen is not very popular I guess.

The old hive has what I think is an unmated queen. She was moving around pretty fast and not super long like the old queen. There are no swarm cells in this old hive with the new virgin queen.

I want to split the hybrid nuc/deep and put some more 10 frame boxes on the 10 deep. I will probably go with a 10 medium since that is what I have handy. I'm thinking of moving all the frames with swarm cells to the nuc, splitting it off, and leaving the old queen in the 10 deep. Is this advisable?

Thanks in advance!

PhilK · May 02, 2016, 11:00:37 PM

Quote from: devehf on May 02, 2016, 10:47:05 PMI want to split the hybrid nuc/deep and put some more 10 frame boxes on the 10 deep. I will probably go with a 10 medium since that is what I have handy. I'm thinking of moving all the frames with swarm cells to the nuc, splitting it off, and leaving the old queen in the 10 deep. Is this advisable?

My understanding is that you should move the old queen into a new hive and leave the swarm cells behind. This makes her feel like she has swarmed and makes her less likely to take off

GSF · May 03, 2016, 09:05:06 AM

ditto - move the old queen. Healthy hives swarms.

BeeMaster2 · May 03, 2016, 12:42:56 PM

Quote from: PhilK on May 02, 2016, 11:00:37 PM
Quote from: devehf on May 02, 2016, 10:47:05 PMI want to split the hybrid nuc/deep and put some more 10 frame boxes on the 10 deep. I will probably go with a 10 medium since that is what I have handy. I'm thinking of moving all the frames with swarm cells to the nuc, splitting it off, and leaving the old queen in the 10 deep. Is this advisable?
My understanding is that you should move the old queen into a new hive and leave the swarm cells behind. This makes her feel like she has swarmed and makes her less likely to take off

Keep in mind that it is not the queen that makes the decision to swarm, it is the bees. The bees that stayed behind with the old queen think they need to swarm. The bees in the new hive are building a new nest.
If the bees in the old hive have to start with a newly hatched queen, they already swarmed.
Jim

PhilK · May 03, 2016, 09:06:14 PM

Quote from: sawdstmakr on May 03, 2016, 12:42:56 PMKeep in mind that it is not the queen that makes the decision to swarm, it is the bees. The bees that stayed behind with the old queen think they need to swarm. The bees in the new hive are building a new nest.
If the bees in the old hive have to start with a newly hatched queen, they already swarmed.
Jim

Thanks, that makes sense! Either way the queen should be the one to move, and swarm cells remain so the workforce thinks she has swarmed, right?

BeeMaster2 · May 03, 2016, 09:49:41 PM

Yes, you move the old queen so that she is starting a new hive and keep the swarm cells so that the strongest one starts the old hive all over again just as nature would do.
Jim