Bees building comb on lid

[omnimirage]

One of my hives are doing this and I don't know why. They have space on the frames, everything is properly placed, and I'm using a hive mat. I took some photos.

https://imgur.com/a/HxCpU

Why might they be doing this?

[SlickMick]

Mine used to do this until I started using a top cover board above the super

Mick

[yantabulla]

Bees building up into the lid are telling you that they don't have enough space.  You only have 9 frames in a 10 frame brood box.  Everything is not properly placed.  What a mess. 

[BeeMaster2]

Also your inner cover is too small. Make one that fits over the top of the hive and seals the outer edges.
Jim

[yantabulla]

It's a hive mat, not an inner cover.  Either way it's a mess.  Beekeeping 101.

[smokey1]

Your top cover looks like it does not fit over the edges of your box leaving what looks to be a 2 inch space above the frames and the lid they will build comb there every time

[omnimirage]

Mine used to do this until I started using a top cover board above the super

Mick

I had the same experience. I was hence surprised when I used a top cover board/hive mat, and found that I still had comb on my lid.

Bees building up into the lid are telling you that they don't have enough space.  You only have 9 frames in a 10 frame brood box.  Everything is not properly placed.  What a mess. 

I was taught that 9 frames are better in a 10 frame hive, as the greater space provided to the bees allows them to fill each frame with more honey and some other efficiency reasons. When using 10 frames, I found the space inside to be at times a little crammed and have been concerned about squishing bees as I pull frames. I've also found that, when frames are too crammed together, or too close to the side of the super, that the bees will not build comb there. Rather unsure, does it look like there's too much space? How is everything not properly placed? What about it is a mess?

Your top cover looks like it does not fit over the edges of your box leaving what looks to be a 2 inch space above the frames and the lid they will build comb there every time

I do see in the photo that there's quite a large space. Maybe I didn't position the mat properly? It is a "professionally" made mat, but an "amateur" made super. Not really sure.

[Wombat2]

"I was taught that 9 frames are better in a 10 frame hive, as the greater space provided to the bees allows them to fill each frame with more honey and some other efficiency reasons. When using 10 frames, I found the space inside to be at times a little crammed and have been concerned about squishing bees as I pull frames. I've also found that, when frames are too crammed together, or too close to the side of the super, that the bees will not build comb there. "

To get 10 frames comfortably in a 10 frame box next time you buy frames do this: get an electric plane. Take the ends and clamp in bundles to fit the width of the plane making sure the edges are even Adjust the plane to cut a depth of 1mm. plane each side of the top wide section of the frame ends - ie reduce the width of the ends from 34mm to 32mm 10 frames in the box will gain an extra 20mm in room and the outside frames will have a full bee space against the side wall of the box making life easier for the bees and easier for you working the box. You can also gain a little more space between frames to get more honey per frame on 10 frames instead of 9

[yantabulla]

Ten frames in the brood box.  Nine frames in the honey super.
How are you going to pull those frames out without killing bees or rolling your queen? 
Lots of burr comb. It is a mess.
You could easily fit another frame in there if you had started correctly.
Properly spaced brood frames can be moved anywhere in the hive.
The hive mat won't stop them if they have no other option. 
Join a beekeeping club or find someone to help you.

[Wombat2]

Just looked at your photos (work computer doesn't let me) the lid burr comb is no biggy - I've had worse - can happen when a good flow is on and you are not robbing quick enough. I have big vents that allow me to look in the lid and see what they are up to helps keep SHB down as well - to much light for them. Your frames are too far apart - run your hive tool,down to cut them ( or a long knife) that will make it easier to get them out, put your replacement frames in with no more than 4mm gap (or less) between anything more they will fill with comb. Centralise all the frames with the left over space equal on the outside edges. Picture shows the vents in a nuc - there are two each end in a full size lid and allows you to see right through - keeps them cool in summer Winter if it's real cold you can close off with duck tape or my new version have the metal fly wire on the inside and I can shove some foam rubber in part of the hole [attachment=0][/attachment]

[Wombat2]

As for the burr comb - get a small bucket with a lid ( preferably screw on - like what swimming pool tablet come in) scrap off the burr comb with your hive tool and put it in the bucket - cover to keep most of the bees out - you'll get some - unavoidable. Extract the honey by squeeze and drain. Got 10kg out of the lid once (needed two buckets that did)

[little john]

Just want to clarify an important point which is frequently over-looked.

People often talk about the 'bee-space' and 'frame-spacing' in absolute terms, as if there is some kind of correct measurement which can be quoted and will be good for all beekeeepers everywhere.

Bees draw combs using their bodies as measuring tools.  But - as bees are of different sizes, bee-spaces and therefore the linear space between combs will vary according to the size of whatever bees you keep. 

Of course I'm talking averages here, as the size of each individual bee will also vary within a population, but bees produced on 'regular' foundation will be very much larger than those produced from either (so-called) 'small-cell' foundation, or those from the cells of naturally-drawn comb.

Thus, 32mm is a much more desirable spacing for natural cell-size bees, than that of the 'as supplied' 35mm Hoffman frames.  (35mm being the industry compromise between large-cell brood spacing and the larger 38mm+ honey spacing.)  So, as Wombat has suggested, it really does pay to trim your brood frames down. Giving your honey frames a wider spacing is also a good move, based on the same logic. 

Sure, 35mm is what suppliers supply, but it ain't necessarily the right size for everyone's bees.
LJ

[bwallace23350]

I just noticed this morning that my lid is not on correct and has left a space between it and the boxes. Is this a problem and will they build comb around it?

[Wombat2]

They will glue it down one way or the other - less than 1/8" with propolis More than that with comb

[omnimirage]

"I was taught that 9 frames are better in a 10 frame hive, as the greater space provided to the bees allows them to fill each frame with more honey and some other efficiency reasons. When using 10 frames, I found the space inside to be at times a little crammed and have been concerned about squishing bees as I pull frames. I've also found that, when frames are too crammed together, or too close to the side of the super, that the bees will not build comb there. "

To get 10 frames comfortably in a 10 frame box next time you buy frames do this: get an electric plane. Take the ends and clamp in bundles to fit the width of the plane making sure the edges are even Adjust the plane to cut a depth of 1mm. plane each side of the top wide section of the frame ends - ie reduce the width of the ends from 34mm to 32mm 10 frames in the box will gain an extra 20mm in room and the outside frames will have a full bee space against the side wall of the box making life easier for the bees and easier for you working the box. You can also gain a little more space between frames to get more honey per frame on 10 frames instead of 9

How very interesting. Any idea why the frames appear to be a little thick? I have a few different types, one of them might be homemade and are significantly thicker than the ones I purchase from the local man. The thick frames throw off the whole space issue in the hive, I'm thinking of having them replaced.

Ten frames in the brood box.  Nine frames in the honey super.
How are you going to pull those frames out without killing bees or rolling your queen? 
Lots of burr comb. It is a mess.
You could easily fit another frame in there if you had started correctly.
Properly spaced brood frames can be moved anywhere in the hive.
The hive mat won't stop them if they have no other option. 
Join a beekeeping club or find someone to help you.

Why would rolling the queen be a issue with this hiveset up?

There's a lot more burrcomb now, I checked yesterday.

As for the burr comb - get a small bucket with a lid ( preferably screw on - like what swimming pool tablet come in) scrap off the burr comb with your hive tool and put it in the bucket - cover to keep most of the bees out - you'll get some - unavoidable. Extract the honey by squeeze and drain. Got 10kg out of the lid once (needed two buckets that did)

That's a very interesting looking hive! Does that large ventilation hole ever get rain/moisture in it?

Thinking I should clean up the hive: remove the burr comb, honey on lid and reduce the frame's thickness to introduce another frame, now, or when Spring arrives?

Just want to clarify an important point which is frequently over-looked.

People often talk about the 'bee-space' and 'frame-spacing' in absolute terms, as if there is some kind of correct measurement which can be quoted and will be good for all beekeeepers everywhere.

Bees draw combs using their bodies as measuring tools.  But - as bees are of different sizes, bee-spaces and therefore the linear space between combs will vary according to the size of whatever bees you keep. 

Of course I'm talking averages here, as the size of each individual bee will also vary within a population, but bees produced on 'regular' foundation will be very much larger than those produced from either (so-called) 'small-cell' foundation, or those from the cells of naturally-drawn comb.

Thus, 32mm is a much more desirable spacing for natural cell-size bees, than that of the 'as supplied' 35mm Hoffman frames.  (35mm being the industry compromise between large-cell brood spacing and the larger 38mm+ honey spacing.)  So, as Wombat has suggested, it really does pay to trim your brood frames down. Giving your honey frames a wider spacing is also a good move, based on the same logic. 

Sure, 35mm is what suppliers supply, but it ain't necessarily the right size for everyone's bees.
LJ

Very good to know, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

[west end apiary]

Omnirage,

I am a small time beekeeper on the Gold Coast and I don't run any inner covers or anything apart from the lid. So I often get much greater volume of burr comb in the lid. I think of it as a reserve if I somehow take too much in extractions.

The distance between your frames  however, appear to far to me. You can see the bees building comb between them and that means there is too much space.

I run eight frame boxes so I don't really have the 9 vs 10 frame issue.

Just remember beekeeping is learnt over lots of errors and corrections, so just keep doing it and you will find what works for you.

Nick

[SlickMick]

Like Nick has just mentioned, your frames are widely spaced. When I was running 10 frame boxes with 9 frames I always left no more than a couple of mm between the end bars in the supers so that it was easier for me to decap.

I still do this with 8 frame boxes

Now I do use a top board to avoid the burr comb in the lid.

Mick

[Wombat2]

Why would rolling the queen be a issue with this hiveset up?

Means you would be killing the queen