How to proceed, opinions and guidance needed

Nugget Shooter · June 05, 2016, 12:42:29 PM

A couple weeks back on 5-25-16 I removed a existing hive from a tire as some here may remember and I only glanced inside a week back to make sure they were working on things. I opened the hive today for an actual inspection. I already suspected this hive may be queenless and today I could not find a queen, new eggs, larva, or capped brood, (not sure but think capped brood in photos came with their comb) but they have stored a bunch of nectar/sugar water/honey and are repairing the comb rubber banded to frames from their tire, but not drawing new comb on foundations. There are 4 or 5 queen cells on the frame shown in photos.

Simple question from a new feller, leave them alone or......? I have a couple other hives doing well one a package going gangbusters and a weaker hive removed from a water meter box.

I should add I do read and pay attention, but still feel I need your opinions, can I or should I set this one above the weaker one with queen doing the newspaper trick? I have no capped brood I can afford to steal from other hives so I am looking for the most logical solution here and that comes from your experiences.... I asked at another forum as well, but more input is best way for me to get this right.

Acebird · June 05, 2016, 02:41:42 PM

If it were me I would leave them alone and let the supercedure take place.

iddee · June 05, 2016, 03:45:38 PM

As much it hurts, I have to agree with Acebird.

It looks perfect to me. I would go back into it in 15 to 20 days and look for eggs.

cao · June 05, 2016, 03:55:43 PM

I agree too. Three beekeepers agreeing, is the world about to end?

Acebird · June 05, 2016, 03:56:43 PM

Well no one else was answering ... How much can it hurt anyway?

little john · June 05, 2016, 04:53:26 PM

Quote from: Nugget Shooter on June 05, 2016, 12:42:29 PM
A couple weeks back on 5-25-16 I removed a existing hive from a tire as some here may remember and I only glanced inside a week back to make sure they were working on things. I opened the hive today for an actual inspection. I already suspected this hive may be queenless and today I could not find a queen, new eggs, larva, ...

I think you're spot-on in suspecting that the queen didn't make the transfer across from the tyre.

QuoteThere are 4 or 5 queen cells on the frame shown in photos. Simple question from a new feller, leave them alone or......?

Those are emergency cells that the bees have drawn from eggs/larva as a result of being queenless. One virgin should emerge any day now, and will kill the others. I agree (making four - is this a record ?) - leave them alone, they'll sort themselves out.

QuoteI have [...] a weaker hive removed from a water meter box. should I set this one above the weaker one with queen doing the newspaper trick?

On no account do this - unless you're planning on killing the 'water-meter-box' queen anyway - 'cause that's what will probably happen if you were to combine those two colonies right now.

Hope it all works out ...
LJ

Nugget Shooter · June 05, 2016, 05:03:49 PM

Well then it seems my first thought of simply leaving them alone was sound even though the new kid urge to mess with something was strong

I was also going to ask about time frame and you have also answered this for me and I will wait and learn from this experience and I do appreciate having a "crew" of mentors for these moments.

Glad I didn't jump and try to combine them since the water box queen is laying well and the hive is healthy and growing though still small. Would have been a bit upset if I would have gotten her offed as a result of my meddling.

Blacksheep · June 05, 2016, 09:08:04 PM

Even if she did make the transfer you will be better off with a new Queen!Let them be for about 2 weeks at least and then check on them for a laying queen!

KeyLargoBees · June 07, 2016, 09:20:17 AM

It always hurts to agree with Ace....but +1 to him anyway :-)

sc-bee · June 07, 2016, 10:45:09 AM

Quote from: iddee on June 05, 2016, 03:45:38 PM
As much it hurts, I have to agree with Acebird.

It looks perfect to me. I would go back into it in 15 to 20 days and look for eggs.

Yep me too... but I agree

Nugget Shooter · June 07, 2016, 01:23:20 PM

Thanks again and will update in a couple weeks....

little john · June 08, 2016, 03:35:21 AM

Receive a PM from somebody enquiring why I was so sure these were emergency and not supercedure cells. My reply:

QuoteHi

How did I 'know' they were emergency cells and not supercedure cells ?

Well - based on three observations:

The first being that the number of q/cells present is more consistent with the emergency response than supercedure. From the bees' point of view, suddenly becoming queenless is a crisis of the highest magnitude - hence they draw many cells to optimise the colony's chances of survival. This response is thus used (initially) by those wishing to raise the largest number of q/cells in a queen-rearing unit.

The second observation is that the queen could not be seen on inspection.

The third is perhaps the most convincing - and it is that of timing. Is it plausible that queen supercedure just happened to coincide with the colony's extraction from the tyre ? Well, that's certainly possible - but it's far more likely that the queen was lost or seriously injured during transfer, and that emergency cells were immediately created as a result.

Now - when taken individually, none of these observations is conclusive on it's own (especially spotting the queen) - but - when considered collectively ... as someone once said, "if it waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then the chances are pretty high that it IS a duck !"

But the important part - the advice given to "leave them alone" - applies equally, whether these be emergency OR supercedure q/cells.

Hope this helps.

Just in case anyone else was wondering ...
But - I don't mind being PM'ed ... honest !

LJ

Acebird · June 08, 2016, 08:44:42 AM

LJ is 4 or 5 cells a lot for a supercedure (third observation)?

little john · June 08, 2016, 09:00:00 AM

In my experience just one or two (errr, first observation)

But I wouldn't want to make an issue of this - as I said - "none of these observations is conclusive on it's own" - my conclusion being based on all three observations, especially the third.

The important thing - for me - was your advice to leave well alone.
LJ

Acebird · June 08, 2016, 09:20:46 AM

A yes, I didn't count the days in the first observation. If the colony became queenless at the time of the cut out the queens should have hatched around June 5. I agree, it must have been emergency cells not supercedure.

Nugget Shooter · June 22, 2016, 11:59:10 AM

OK update on the "tire bee" hive, since this post and discovering queen cells on the 5th of June the bees are now acting normal or at least normal to my newbee eyes. They are going about their business as my other hives do and their nervous attitude is gone. It has been 17 days and I am guessing a little early to be bothering them? We are going in to our summer dearth here now and temps are averaging 105F to 115F with low humidity. There were a LOT of bees in this cutout and the hive is very active during the day. So what say ye? Should I be doing an inspection or just be happy they seem normal and leave them alone another week or 2? I am the patient sort and lean toward leaving them alone for a spell yet since I see no issues...

GSF · June 22, 2016, 03:12:13 PM

One thing to be concerned with it this time of year robbing may become an issue once you open the hive up.