Time Line

[billdean]

Here are 2 pictures taken 4 days apart of the same frame. One picture was taken on June 6th and one on June 10th. One picture the QC is clearly capped but in the other picture I am not sure. Could everyone look at these 2 pictures and give me a time line on when the queen may emerge. I was thinking she should emerge 18th or 19th of June but it may be sooner then that.

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[iddee]

I would guess she will emerge on June 16 0r 17, but that's only a guess. I would not open the hive again before June 22 or later.

[billdean]

I would guess she will emerge on June 16 0r 17, but that's only a guess. I would not open the hive again before June 22 or later.

Thanks Iddee.........I think the 16 or 17 is closer to being right. I have not opened the hive sense the split and will not until around the 30th of June.

[BeeMaster2]

Why are you in this hive 4 days apart.
It is hard to tell but it looks like it is capped. For the next 6 days the queen pupa's ovaries and very prone to damage. Even flipping the frames can hurt her.
After she hatches, she needs to be left alone to have time to mate and prove her self as a good layer.
I would not do another inspection for another 3 weeks so that she will have at least a frame of wet brood.
Jim

[billdean]

Why are you in this hive 4 days apart.
It is hard to tell but it looks like it is capped. For the next 6 days the queen pupa's ovaries and very prone to damage. Even flipping the frames can hurt her.
After she hatches, she needs to be left alone to have time to mate and prove her self as a good layer.
I would not do another inspection for another 3 weeks so that she will have at least a frame of wet brood.
Jim

The first inspection show QC...... I went in 4 days later to verify if they had been capped or not. They had. I did a 50/50 split of the hive on June 10 the day I found the capped queen cells. I have not been in to the hive sense June 10 but my next inspection is scheduled for June 30th.
Next 6 days starting when? 6 days from the 10th or 6 days from today?

[BeeMaster2]

The queen pupa is most vonerable the first 6 days after being capped.
Jim

[Acebird]

I think what Jim is trying to get across is at the moment you saw the queen cells (larvae in the cup) is when you should have done the splits.  It is water of the dam now but in the future don't wait until the cell is capped.

[billdean]

I think what Jim is trying to get across is at the moment you saw the queen cells (larvae in the cup) is when you should have done the splits.  It is water of the dam now but in the future don't wait until the cell is capped.

I will explain why I did what I did. Being new I did not realize the real significance of a queen cup. On the first inspection when I found the queen cups I only looked at 4 of them on the same frame. Those 4 cups did not have eggs in them. The next frame I showed in the picture above I thought was the same and did not check it thoroughly as I should have until a few days latter when looking at the pictures I took. Guess what the one that developed into a cell was the one I did not pay attention too. When I did the split the frame with the 4 queen cups were still just queen cups but going deeper into the hive than I had perviously show me a lot more queen cells that I was unaware of previously.
What I have learned from this is confusing in a way. If you find queen cups in a hive, at that point do you due a complete inspection or do you go just as far as the first queen cups and put things back together then check back in a few days as I did? Had I went into the second box on my first inspection I may have found capped queen cells at that point, and did the split then.
Again information on these site are confusing and the whole picture is rarely revealed until its to late! When I asked about superceded cups people said it is normal and usually they tear them down in a few days. They said just check back in a 3 to 5 days and make sure they don't develop into cells which I did.

[KeyLargoBees]

Its not that the information on the site is confusing...its that every situation is different. And almost every colony has a personality of its own which makes it hard to pigeonhole. Its impossible to give hard and fast absolute answers that will cover every situation.

Lots of variables that coudl affect how you react to what you saw...
1. Time of Year
2. Age of colony
3. long term existing queen or recently replaced and or package
4. size of brood chamber
5. available laying space or honeybound

What you did wasn't wrong and we all second guess ourselves when the bees do something unexpected...learn from it as best you can and move on to the next teachable moment....and lord knows there are plenty of those.....almost every day they do something that surprises me and I file it away in the "what the hell did i just see file"

[Acebird]

Its impossible to give hard and fast absolute answers that will cover every situation.

You got that right.
I really have an issue with feeding when you are a newbie because it induces bees to do things they wouldn't do if left to forage on their own.  As a newbie you haven't learned yet what bees do so there is no way to tell what you see is normal or not because you are putting the hive in a not normal situation.  Assuming you get your bees in the spring most areas of this country have enough forage for the (swarm or nuc) to make do.  Many people disagree with me but I think a newbie can learn what bees do a lot better if they let the bees do it.  First year beekeeping is an observing year not a doing year.  The only thing you should be doing is providing space, not too fast and not too slow.  If you can master that then you can get more hives and experiment the next year.

[gww]

ace

Assuming you get your bees in the spring most areas of this country have enough forage for the (swarm or nuc) to make do.

I am seeing if you are right about this.  So far I have two swarms on foundationless that have one medium each about drawn out.  I have really tried to put them to the test by breaking/ruining enough comb while trying to keep it strait to make it interresting for them.
I should have three mediums for my location not just one.

I haven't been able to make myself feed either due to lazyness or fear of robbing or just a mean streak.  I am new and have no ideal of what I am looking at even when seeing it.  To get them to work the next box I have split the brood nest by pulling one from the center up by itself into the second medium.  Not sure if the is good but they do move up with the frame.

I did combine a late swarm two weeks ago with the smaller earlier swarm to try and give them some help.   I have got in the hives lots more then I thought I would cause I have no experiance on how fast bees build comb and when to add space.

I have not looked for eggs or larva but try to see capped brood cause atleast my eyes are good enough for that.

I mostly look at comb shape and space and let them do what they want with my fingers crossed in the hopes it will work out.

My question is, am I becoming a real bee keeper doing it this way or just a bee haver?
I am too cheep to spend money so I hope something lives through winter.  Hope hope.
Cheers
gww
Ps  I have not dug deep enough or remembered to look for a queen cell even one time while in the hive.  I have remembered that I didn't look on the way back to the house after closing the hive.  You guys say make the split right when you first see the cell before it is capped?

[iddee]

GWW, relax and enjoy the bees this summer.You will still have the boxes for swarms next spring. Maybe you'll take better care of them next year.

[cao]

>My question is, am I becoming a real bee keeper doing it this way or just a bee haver?

Does it really matter what you call yourself?  The only thing you really have to do is give them enough room to be able to make it through the winter.  The rest is up to the bees. 

>Ps  I have not dug deep enough or remembered to look for a queen cell even one time while in the hive.  I have remembered that I didn't look on the way back to the house after closing the hive.  You guys say make the split right when you first see the cell before it is capped?

Since your bees are from swarms, I would assume that, as long as you give them enough room to grow, you wouldn't see many queen cells.  Possibly a supercedure cell if they want to replace the queen if she is failing.

[GSF]

Its not that the information on the site is confusing...its that every situation is different. And almost every colony has a personality of its own which makes it hard to pigeonhole

Well said.

[gww]

Iddee

Maybe you'll take better care of them next year.

If I had any ideal of what better care is I might even do it this year.  I feel pretty dumb but still sit out side the entrance every morning and look at the trafic in and out.

cao

Since your bees are from swarms, I would assume that, as long as you give them enough room to grow, you wouldn't see many queen cells.  Possibly a supercedure cell if they want to replace the queen if she is failing.

If I have any bees left come spring, was the advice to the original poster to move the cell before it was capped and as soon as you see it due to it being fragile for the first six days after being capped?  I will probly not face such a situation but am trying to learn for when I might be faced with it some day.

You guys are great.
gww

[Blacksheep]

When I catch a swarm I wait 3 days and then give them som sugar water as they have no stores and .it will encourage them to draw comb.Can you imagine moving into a house with nothing?Please help the girls out!

[GSF]

When I catch a swarm I feed them till it's about all drawn out - which is usually 10 days this year.

[iddee]

With a package, I feed until they have drawn the first box. With a swarm, I feed them 2 to 4 quarts. A package comes before the flow, ""hopefully". A swarm comes during the flow and only needs feed until they orientate.

I start both on foundation or drawn comb, then insert foundationless between drawn comb. That way, I don't throw away half their summer's work.

[cao]

If I have any bees left come spring, was the advice to the original poster to move the cell before it was capped and as soon as you see it due to it being fragile for the first six days after being capped?  I will probly not face such a situation but am trying to learn for when I might be faced with it some day.

Yes that was the advice.  Move the queen cell before capped if possible.  If it is already capped, you can move it just be careful with it.

[gww]

I caught two swarms on the 7th of may.  I put in empty boxes with foundationless frames.  I have no foundation or drawn comb to relie on.  It took the bigger of the two swarms about 5 weeks to fill the lower medium to about 80%.  The smaller one was at about 60%.  I caught a simular or even bigger swarm about two weeks ago and paper combined it with the small swarm. 

I did not feed and mostly watched traffic at the entrance and the bigger swarm had strong traffic.  The swarms both built about a quarters worth on four or five frames pretty quick.  The bigger one filled everything as they built it with nector while the smaller one had some comb built that wasn't filled but from the beginning had one quarter frame full of nector.

I didn't think they were starving and had read that you didn't nessisarily have to feed swarms and the one and only time I ever tried to feed a hive I started robbing and it didn't end well.  I had one bought double hive with lots of bees and these two swarms sitting right nest to each other and they seem to be keeping to themselves the way it is.

I had read lots of poeple who said their swarm or package built out a box in a week and didn't know if what I had was good or bad as I have never seen a 3 lb package and have no point of referance to know even what I am dealing with size wise. 

I put a medium empty on the double medium hive I had bought and the bees didn't touch it for a week.  I pulled a brood frame up and in a week the bees had built a frame on each side of what I had pulled up.  I am trying to get my timing down so I can do more with out looking as much.

The bees keep surprizing me though.  I tiped the top on the one that I pulled the brood up  on with the three frames built and it has only been 2/3 days and now the box is over 60% drawn and I am wondering if I will even make the next three or four days before I have to add another box. 

It is hot and no rain and the flow surly has to slow down quick.  I have another swarm in a trap that I am sure is probly not very big and I am thinking of leaving it in the trap for about a month and moving it to dads when  the soy beans bloom just cause it have been in the trap long enough that I am not sure I can move it only 100 yards with out losing all the foragers.

If I paper combined them and they had to go through the hive they were added to would I lose the foragers?

I have the second box on both swarms now and on one I pulled up my straitest brood frame from the middle of the lower box and the other I just rubberbanded a couple of peices of comb that broke while transfering the swarm I combined. 

I hope I learn something during this year and if feeding gets a box drawn in 11 days compared to 5 weeks, I probly should have fed.  However, if the swarms live through the winter, I will probly do it the same way next year depending on what I am seeing rain and stuff.

cao

Thank you for answering my question.

I have no ideal yet what is good or bad.
gww