In Need of Advice Please

mtnb · June 22, 2016, 09:58:24 PM

Today I looked into my hives. The hive in question is a new nuc I bought in May. It's really going strong. They have a 8F deep and a medium filled with brood, honey, and pollen. I suspect the Queen is in the upper box. I pulled a drawn frame up into the 3rd box, hopefully for honey storage, which I did last time and bees were on it this time. I did not see the Queen but saw various stages of larva.

On the 5th frame in, on the bottom deep, I found what looks like a supersedure cell. Middle of the frame, pointing down, and it looked like bees were peeking in possibly feeding the egg. I did see what looked like white royal jelly on the bottom of it but it's really difficult to see from that angle and with the veil. While looking through the deep, their sound increased dramatically. They were VeRy loud. Plus, many of them left the hive and bearded up front, which I had never witnessed before. They seemed super upset. I guess something could have happened to my Queen? If so, I really don't understand how packed this hive is with everything it needs. I cannot see eggs, btw but saw plenty of larvae and capped brood. Could this be a swarm cell just not in the "right" spot?

I just don't get it. If anything, I would have expected to see that cell in the next hive over. Plenty of bees in there too but not too much capped brood. Maybe uncapped? Lots of honey and pollen.

Anyway, what do you guys make of this cell and any advice on how I should proceed would be appreciated.

http://s284.photobucket.com/user/MTBeeGirl/library/6-22-16%20inspection?sort=2&page=1

iddee · June 22, 2016, 10:26:46 PM

Supercedure. I have been reading that about 40% of queen introductions, IE: packages and non-mother queens in nucs, are superceding their queens this year. Your description sounds like a normal supercedure.

mtnb · June 23, 2016, 12:54:17 AM

Bummer. Why did they leave the hive like that and beard while I was inspecting?

PhilK · June 23, 2016, 02:35:42 AM

One of my hives sometimes does the same thing. I imagine their home being pulled apart and smoke being blown everywhere means they try and get out? They normally hang around the front for a bit after I'm done the inspection then slowly go back inside

RustyUPNY · June 23, 2016, 07:59:10 AM

I have a hive as well that will beard in the front. They quickly head back in when the inspection is over.

Correct me if I am wrong by if this were a supercedure in that they are replacing a queen the don't like but hasn't died/left wouldn't the old queen still be in there doing her thing?

iddee · June 23, 2016, 09:07:06 AM

It depends.If she quit doing her thing, that may be why they are replacing her. Also,the OP said she could not see eggs, so there may be eggs in there and still being added daily.

mtnb · June 23, 2016, 10:05:01 AM

I have never had them beard like that during inspection or ever. It was definitely something to see.

I had one of those Aha! moments in the middle of the night last night. lol The hive next to the hive in question is very bare of capped brood and larvae. I BET that they replaced her as well! That is a new nuc also. I had been wondering what is going on just from observing the entrance.

So it's possible that there still is a queen in there. It seemed to me that they're feeding the egg. That means I'm still a month or so out before I MAY have a mated queen. That'll really set me back and we have such a short season. Should I introduce a mated queen (which they'll probably not like either)? Or, could I buy a mated queen and just steal some of their resources and create a new hive (but will they just replace her too possibly)? Or should I just let them bee?

I'm really trying to expand and get more bees. I have plenty of hives ready to put some in. lol

KeyLargoBees · June 23, 2016, 02:58:23 PM

I had these issues to deal with last year Yvonne on packages that superceded 3 times but we have no winter so they just repeated the process till they got it right.

Typically They wont accept a mated queen if they are working queen cells because in their minds they have everything under control and they aren't queen less...if you go that route you have to scrape out all queen cells before introducing the caged queen then you run the risk of something else happenning and you scraped out all those cells and are stuck.

If it were me....I would order a queen....make a small split in a 5 frame nuc with some resources from both hives so you don't set either back too much....be very sure there are no queen cells or a virgin on those frames you rob and make sure there are empty cells so the new queen can immediately start laying..... introduce the new caged queen there...it gives her some place to get established...then if either of the other hives fails at the supercedure you are good to go with a ready made proven queen and can combine......or you have frames with eggs you can introduce into the other colony to let them try and build emergency cells...or best case scenario you end up with another colony out of the experiment for the cost of a queen. :-)

mtnb · June 24, 2016, 12:41:34 PM

Ok. That sounds good. I'll do that. We actually have a new bee shop opening this saturday in Bozeman so I contacted the guy for he said in a post last week that he'll have some Anarchy Apiary queens available. Hopefully I'll hear from him today and get this taken care of tomorrow. Thanks Jeff. I do so wish we had a longer season!

BeeMaster2 · June 24, 2016, 01:11:21 PM

"Bummer. Why did they leave the hive like that and beard while I was inspecting? "

MT,
Look at the picture to the left, That is my first good working hive right after I inspected them on a hot summer day. They really covered the bottom entrance area. They made a lot of honey that year.
Jim

KeyLargoBees · June 24, 2016, 01:23:01 PM

Ahh the profile pic teachable moment ;-)

mtnb · June 25, 2016, 12:58:20 PM

Nice Jim. I've always liked that picture.

Btw Jeff. Yesterday this guy came into our store where I work and said he is from the
FL Keys and needed some hikers and long underwear. lol I was all, "Hey! I know a beekeeper down in the Keys! Jeff. You know him?" LOL! We had a good laugh. hehehe

A little disappointed. The new store owner never called me back. lol I'd say that's not a very good new business practice on his part. Can I get a new queen shipped to me this time of year? A northern Queen? Any ideas on where to look?

iddee · June 25, 2016, 01:16:27 PM

Is N.C. northern or southern? We have a few queens available.

www.beezneedz.com

mtnb · June 25, 2016, 01:18:43 PM

Lol not quite sure. Just came back to update actually. I just called the new owner again and got him on the phone and will pick up a queen. Thank you iddee.

mtnb · June 26, 2016, 12:30:22 PM

Ok. I picked up the Queen and did a split. I suppose it's normal that there would be some forragers on the brood and pollen frames I pulled from my other hive, correct? I saw a couple of bees come out of the new nuc and fly right into the hive I pulled them from. Same thing happened last time I pulled a frame to give to my weak hive. And that seemed to have started a robbing situation which lasted a few days to get under control. I hope this doesn't happen here now. Is there any way to avoid this in the future?

Also, the queen came in one of those oblong clear cages with a candy plug and no attendants. I wedged her between two brood frames and now I'm worried that she's in there too tight and they can't feed her. I put her in plug down and I can't remember if the top of the cage had slots for them to pass food along. Am I worrying needlessly?

http://s284.photobucket.com/user/MTBeeGirl/media/6-22-16%20inspection/image.jpg1_zpsnm9dxhax.jpg.html?sort=2&o=3

KeyLargoBees · June 26, 2016, 01:18:43 PM

Robbing typically only occurs when there is no flow on.....if you are still in a flow you should be fine. Just reduce the entrance on the new NUC down to a very small entrance.

mtnb · June 26, 2016, 11:21:42 PM

Everything seems to be fine. There were plenty of bees orientating and guarding. I do have the entrance very small.

cao · June 27, 2016, 01:31:02 AM

Quote from: KeyLargoBees on June 26, 2016, 01:18:43 PM
Robbing typically only occurs when there is no flow on.....if you are still in a flow you should be fine. Just reduce the entrance on the new NUC down to a very small entrance.

That's not always the case. I had a couple of nucs robbed out a few weeks ago. We are just now slowing down on the flow. I guess they thought that it was easier getting the honey from the nuc then collecting it themselves.

I think that anytime, other than maybe early spring, you should be on the lookout for robbing when doing splits.

mtnb · June 27, 2016, 10:04:51 AM

Ok. Thanks cao. They're right in my yard so I visit them frequently and can keep an eye on that.

What about my queen? Think she's starving?

iddee · June 27, 2016, 11:11:26 AM

I never knew "typically" and "always" meant the same thing. KLB is correct, but like everything bees, there can be exceptions. Robbing, by far, happens mostly during dearths.