Moving a Hive

[AndrewT]

OK, so I moved one of my hives today to a location about 100 or so yards away.  Other than moving nucs around and catching swarms, it's the first time I've moved a hive in a long time.

So I check the internet to see if there was any new wisdom about doing this, and found pretty much the same thing as I've read in my 1905 copy of ABC's and XYZ's of Bee Culture.  The basic things being that if you move a hive a short distance, the bees will hurry out of the hive, after you move it and end up milling around the old location saying WTH, but if you move them several miles away, the bees will automatically re-orient themselves and all return to the hive.  And, to prevent problems, the recommendations are to keep the bees confined to the hive for some length of time, and to put some obstacle at the entrance when you open it to "let them know" that somethings different, hoping that they re-orient (both of which I'm doing, plus keeping an empty box ready to set up at the old location to catch the slow-learners so I can put them back in the hive.

We all know that when we move a hive a short distance, that some bees will end up going back to the old location, and we assume that at least some of those bees will never make it back to their hive, and will be lost to wander the earth forever. 

BUT, if we move a hive a longer distance, all we know is that no bees end up at the old location.  We really don't know that the same number of bees will fail to re-orient and will still be lost.  I've not seen any studies where all the bees in a hive are counted before and after a long-distance move.

Just some things I was pondering.

[Michael Bush]

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmoving.htm#between

[AndrewT]

Thanks for the info.  I only confined them from last night until this afternoon and then I put a bunch of sticks around the entrance.  I'll probably put my bait hive at the old location just before dark tonight, and then move that to a spot next to the hive in the morning.


So, it seems to me that, even I did nothing, with the move being something less than 100 yards, there is the possibility of getting back most of the bees that don't re-orient.

And, I think folks who move hives greater distances probably loose more bees than they think, just because they don't see bees milling about in the old hive location.  There is that perception that the bees automatically know their location has changed since none of the surroundings are the same, and it makes them re-orient, but it doesn't seem that it would make any difference.

[little john]

[...]  if we move a hive a longer distance, all we know is that no bees end up at the old location.  We really don't know that the same number of bees will fail to re-orient and will still be lost.  I've not seen any studies where all the bees in a hive are counted before and after a long-distance move.

Just some things I was pondering.

I love it when people 'ponder' ...

There's a rough and ready observation you can make which might go some way to confirm (or not) what you are suggesting ...   If you observe foragers leaving a newly moved hive (a 'long distance' one) - then if those foragers immediately stop in their tracks and start playing in front of the entrance, this would confirm that they have spotted the change in position and are re-adjusting their 'homing mechanism' - whatever that might consist of.  BUT - if they just come barreling out of the hive and take off towards what they assume is the same target location as yesterday ... then the chances are very high indeed that they will become disoriented and won't find their way back.

I think you may be right - that because people have not observed bees circling around the old location when moving hives long distances, they have simply assumed that the bees have re-adjusted to their new location.  And as we are beginning to realise, once an idea has been proposed, it doesn't take much for a suggestion to become cemented into 'fact' (so-called received wisdom).

LJ

[Michael Bush]

The results of a move with something obstructing their path are these:
The bees leaving mostly notice the obstruction and start orienting.  After orienting they fly off to the field to forage.  They return to the old location.  They circle a bit and finally remember their earlier orientation and fly back to the new location.  The bees who did not reorient, will do the same except they won't remember the new location, so they start spiraling outwards until they find a hive and move into the first one they find.  The field bees will continue to return to the old location until they die.  But they will start doing a dog leg where they fly back to the old location and immediately turn and go to the new one.  In three weeks those field bees will be dead and all of them will fly directly back.

[little john]

The results of a move with something obstructing their path are these:

But a quid says people who move their hives (say) two miles or more don't bother with an entrance obstruction - because they have faith in the common axiom regarding a distant move.

So I suspect the OP is right - the bees have no reason to suspect a move has taken place, and simply take-off for 'where they were yesterday', and duly perish.
LJ

[Michael Bush]

>So I suspect the OP is right - the bees have no reason to suspect a move has taken place, and simply take-off for 'where they were yesterday', and duly perish.

Yes.  I agree.  Without an obstruction, they take right off.  I've watched them.  Then they don't know their way back at all.

[Dallasbeek]

The results of a move with something obstructing their path are these:

But a quid says people who move their hives (say) two miles or more don't bother with an entrance obstruction - because they have faith in the common axiom regarding a distant move.

So I suspect the OP is right - the bees have no reason to suspect a move has taken place, and simply take-off for 'where they were yesterday', and duly perish.
LJ

So you're suggesting one always put an obstruction at the entrance, right?  Sounds good to me and costs very little if not necessary, but failure to do so would cost bee lives if it is necessary.

[Michael Bush]

>So you're suggesting one always put an obstruction at the entrance, right? 

Yes.

[PhilK]

If all this is true how do huge commercial beekeeping operations deal with massive bee losses each time they move their hives? I doubt they're getting to new pollination areas and putting obstructions in front of every hive.

Surely they don't lose all their field bees each time they move? That doesn't seem sustainable

[Dallasbeek]

Bees are closed up for an extended time while com. Keepers move them.  That alone causs them to orient when the hive is opened.

[KeyLargoBees]

I sort of nod my head and smile anytime anyone uses the word "always" when it comes to giving beekeeping advice.....do I try and place branches in front of a moved hive...yes....do I always do it....nope ;-)

[little john]

If all this is true how do huge commercial beekeeping operations deal with massive bee losses each time they move their hives? I doubt they're getting to new pollination areas and putting obstructions in front of every hive.

Surely they don't lose all their field bees each time they move? That doesn't seem sustainable

This is something I've also thought about ...

As well as the bees being confined during transport, commercial beekeepers install their hives either close to or within the crops they're intended to pollinate - presumably foragers will encounter those crops before flying too far - hence they will then fly around in circles until they find a hive - and there should be plenty to choose from ...   They only need to do this once, before realising that something's changed.

The bees of amateur beekeepers, on the other hand, may fly long distances to find sources of nectar.  I think that these are the bees at risk of getting lost in the event of a distant move.
LJ

[Michael Bush]

Between the jostling and the confinement bees reorient when you move them very far.  The oldtimers like Miller and Doolittle used to bang on the hive a lot to let the bees know something has happened...