Creating drone sized cells on foundationless frames

Started by Goodybee, July 11, 2016, 09:13:58 AM

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Goodybee

thought I would give foundationless frames a try. Some say it helps with mites.  Added some frames with a 1 inch strip of foundation at the top to my strongest hive and they filled them out very quickly. GREAT NECTAR flow. The problem I am seeing is the size of the cells seem to be quite large almost drone size.  Most of these are filled with honey but my concern is the size of the cell.  Any thoughts on this. Can the queen be a DRONE LAYER as some say?

Psparr

They will build bigger cells to store honey. More efficient for them.

Michael Bush

A drone laying queen is not the cause of drone comb.  Drone comb is caused by the bees' natural threshold for drone comb.  Natural comb is about 20% to 25% drone.  That's one out of four.  My typical box has a drone from in each of the outside positions and 7 frames of brood in the middle of that.  They will draw done comb until their threshold is reached.  If you remove them they will build more.  If you leave them they will fill them with honey when they don't need to raise drones in them.
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chux

In natural combs, they build larger cells at the top of the hive and on all sides, to accommodate the storage of nectar and honey. Sections of this comb will also be used for the raising of drones. The queen is escorted to the larger cells to lay a series of drones, and then forced back to the brood area. In a hive with foundation, they are forced to build the same size cells from top to bottom and from side to side. It is unnatural. If you give them space to build their own comb, when all they have is smaller cells, especially at the top of the hive, they will draw it out large for drone and nectar. They seem to feel a need for a percentage of larger cells. A better option for getting foundationless frames drawn out would be to add a new frame to the center of the brood chamber, and rotate as they build it out. They will build the top of the new frame with larger cells for nectar, but then go to a smaller cell in the center of the frame, for brood. If you only have a handful of hives, that would be the best way to go about it.

Goodybee

Thank you all for your input. Have kept bees for over 2 decades, but first time using foundationless.  I was just surprised at the difference in sizes of cells they built. Very happy about the rate at which they drew them out though.  Very heavy nectar flow here in Michigan. Split this particular hive July 1st 4-ways into nucs (4 frame) gave mated queens. I replaced the frames with foundationless in the donor hive and reinspected yesterday to find them drawn and over 50% filled with nectar.


Oldbeavo

The free form cells built in a honey flow are larger, my interpretation of what the queen will do with these cells in that she will lay drone eggs in these cells if put in the brood area.
She determines whether she lays an unfertilised drone egg or a fertilised worker egg is the size of the cell, which she determines with her front legs as she walks over the cells.
I will stand corrected if my information is not right.