Laying worker hive on purpose

[rookie2531]

Now that drones are dying off and no more are being laid by our queens, do any of you have laying worker hives on purpose, just to help with good mating?
Drones from laying workers are the same as drones from Queens, right?

[iddee]

I have read that they are inferior and don't do well, but have no science to back it up. A frame of green drone comb would likely be a better bet.

[little john]

A mated queen will lay unfertilised eggs in drone-sized cells, whereas a laying worker will lay them in any cell - and those laid in worker-sized cells will be smaller, and thus uncompetitive.

Queenless hives tend to keep drones longer than queen-right hives (makes sense ...), but personally I would discourage the development of laying workers in them by the regular addition of brood.
LJ

[GSF]

A mated queen will lay unfertilised eggs in drone-sized cells, whereas a laying worker will lay them in any cell - and those laid in worker-sized cells will be smaller, and thus uncompetitive.

LJ, you're probably right but in my apiary I'd have to ask; "What competition?"

[Michael Bush]

I probably would do neither, but I would shoot for a drone laying queen before a laying worker hive.  I think you'll get more drones and you'll have an easier time fixing the situation when you are done.  To get a drone laying queen, just confine a virgin for four weeks and then let her mate.

[MikeyN.C.]

I noticed this using starter strips , there where alot of drone size cells , I was told let bees do what bees do

[rookie2531]

O.k thanks all. Good to finally get that one answered. I thought about it a few times but never seemed to think to ask when on these forums.

[Acebird]

I noticed this using starter strips , there where alot of drone size cells , I was told let bees do what bees do

Starter strips do not cause either condition, laying worker or drone layer.  What the starter strip does is let the colony produce comb that they think they should have.  Depending on colony development and location, cell size could be larger because they want drones or want to store honey.  Honey comb can easily be reconstructed into worker brood comb so they don't worry about such things.  They are not going to build drone comb if they have enough already.

[little john]

A mated queen will lay unfertilised eggs in drone-sized cells, whereas a laying worker will lay them in any cell - and those laid in worker-sized cells will be smaller, and thus uncompetitive.

LJ, you're probably right but in my apiary I'd have to ask; "What competition?"

The competition which takes place between drones in the air, as they chase the virgin queen.  Only the very strongest drones - those capable of both speed and endurance - and that's only a tiny percentage of the best of the best - will get to mate.  Any drone which doesn't stand at least a reasonable chance of mating is simply a wasteful drain on resources.
LJ

[CrazyTalk]

A mated queen will lay unfertilised eggs in drone-sized cells, whereas a laying worker will lay them in any cell - and those laid in worker-sized cells will be smaller, and thus uncompetitive.

LJ, you're probably right but in my apiary I'd have to ask; "What competition?"

The competition which takes place between drones in the air, as they chase the virgin queen.  Only the very strongest drones - those capable of both speed and endurance - and that's only a tiny percentage of the best of the best - will get to mate.  Any drone which doesn't stand at least a reasonable chance of mating is simply a wasteful drain on resources.
LJ

Right, but he's talking about making a drone hive during times where drones aren't naturally flying - so they'll only be competing against themselves. The goal is to get queens mated during times of the year where there aren't many drones.

[GSF]

Thanks crazytalk. That's what I was saying. No competition because I don't see any drones now a days.

[little john]

" ... so they'll only be competing against themselves."   That's the very (physical) competition I'm talking about.

The layer worker will produce both regular-sized drones and mini-drones.  The regular-sized drones will compete against themselves (and any drones you're not aware of from outside the apiary !) - but - the mini-drones will not even enter the race - they will NOT be able to compete, because they're just too darned small.  They probably wouldn't be able to catch the queen with a following wind ...

But - a lot of resources (they have to be reared and fed, just like the viable drones) will be wasted on these runts.

If you want drones late in the year, then suggest you install drone comb, wait for the drone larva to be laid, then make that hive queenless.  They'll then be inclined to keep those drones much later than usual.  If you keep that queen in a small nuc, you can then re-form a queen-right colony later-on.

BUT - there is something you're overlooking - there is always genetic competition taking place - or should be.  If the only drones flying are those from your own apiary, then you will be encouraging in-breeding - which ain't good.  Much better to arrange your queen raising schedule for when there are plenty of local drones about. (unless you have a 50+ colony operation, of course, when you'll no doubt have enough genetic lines to be independent)
LJ

[Michael Bush]

One of the reasons for AHB success genetically is that they have smaller drones, who outfly, both in speed and duration, the EHB drones.  The start earlier and fly until later and catch more queens... I don't know of any research to support that the drones from worker brood are not successful.

[little john]

But Michael - that's comparing apples with oranges (or at least oranges with satsumas ...), as the African bee and European bee are different sub-groups, and the success of one over the other could be due to reasons other than size.

If we stick to just one sub-group and stand back and consider that - in the normal course of events - the drone of the European honey bee is significantly larger than that of the worker bee.
Now this is anomalous - for to be blunt and somewhat crude, the drone is (afawk) nothing more than a flying pair of testicles - yet for some reason evolution has favoured the development of this much larger male bee - and that this size must therefore play some significant role in it's biological function ... otherwise drones simply wouldn't be that large, as it takes more resources to make a larger bee than a small one.

Ergo - bees which do not have this essential characteristic will be 'defective' in whatever advantage the larger size gives, and the fact that there isn't any 'research' to explain that advantage is irrelevant, as that is merely an indication of a deficicency in our knowledge.

There has been at least one attempt to resolve this mystery:
The flight characteristics of drones in relation to mating.  Joseph R Coelho., Western Illinois University, 1994, published 1996 - in which Coelho concludes (inconclusively):

I have attempted to identify key flight characteristics for which drones are adapted.

In that all organisms represent a compromise among numerous selection pressures, it seems likely that the flight design of drones is a compromise among several needs, including perhaps all of those mentioned above and others. Nonetheless, fruitful avenues of research might focus on some of these areas, especially lift force and male-male competition.

It is somewhat surprising that so little work of this nature has been done.  The idea that selection for queen-carrying resulted in the evolution of large drones is at least 120 years old. Darwin (1871) suggested that "...amongst the Bees, the males of Apis mellifica... are larger than the females. The explanation of this anomaly is that a marriage flight is absolutely necessary with these species, and the male requires great strength and size in order to carry the female through the air."

In the absence of evidence to the contrary therefore, I feel quite confident when saying that worker-size drones will be unable to successfully compete against normal-sized drones of the same sub-species.
LJ

[Acebird]

What is assumption and what is fact?  If a smaller AHB can fly faster and longer then a bigger EHB then why are you saying a smaller EHB can't out fly a larger EHB, if size matters?  I would also like to know how does anyone know who is on top?... who is carrying who and why wouldn't it be both?  Is there some documented proof what goes on in flight?

[Jim134]

One of the reasons for AHB success genetically is that they have smaller drones, who outfly, both in speed and duration, the EHB drones.  The start earlier and fly until later and catch more queens... I don't know of any research to support that the drones from worker brood are not successful.

Also African drones stat earlier in the morning than their counterparts European drones. And it's also like you said African drones are much faster on the queen then European drones. Just because European drones bigger doesn't make them faster.



                     BEE HAPPY Jim 134

[Jim134]

But Michael - that's comparing apples with oranges (or at least oranges with satsumas ...), as the African bee and European bee are different sub-groups, and the success of one over the other could be due to reasons other than size.

If we stick to just one sub-group and stand back and consider that - in the normal course of events - the drone of the European honey bee is significantly larger than that of the worker bee.
Now this is anomalous - for to be blunt and somewhat crude, the drone is (afawk) nothing more than a flying pair of testicles - yet for some reason evolution has favoured the development of this much larger male bee - and that this size must therefore play some significant role in it's biological function ... otherwise drones simply wouldn't be that large, as it takes more resources to make a larger bee than a small one.

Ergo - bees which do not have this essential characteristic will be 'defective' in whatever advantage the larger size gives, and the fact that there isn't any 'research' to explain that advantage is irrelevant, as that is merely an indication of a deficicency in our knowledge.

There has been at least one attempt to resolve this mystery:
The flight characteristics of drones in relation to mating.  Joseph R Coelho., Western Illinois University, 1994, published 1996 - in which Coelho concludes (inconclusively):

I have attempted to identify key flight characteristics for which drones are adapted.

In that all organisms represent a compromise among numerous selection pressures, it seems likely that the flight design of drones is a compromise among several needs, including perhaps all of those mentioned above and others. Nonetheless, fruitful avenues of research might focus on some of these areas, especially lift force and male-male competition.

It is somewhat surprising that so little work of this nature has been done.  The idea that selection for queen-carrying resulted in the evolution of large drones is at least 120 years old. Darwin (1871) suggested that "...amongst the Bees, the males of Apis mellifica... are larger than the females. The explanation of this anomaly is that a marriage flight is absolutely necessary with these species, and the male requires great strength and size in order to carry the female through the air."

In the absence of evidence to the contrary therefore, I feel quite confident when saying that worker-size drones will be unable to successfully compete against normal-sized drones of the same sub-species.
LJ

  Michael Bush
   I never realized small cell drones probably cannot mate with the queen. I have no idea if this is true or not. Maybe you can shed some light on it. I thank you for your time.


           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 

[Michael Bush]

>But Michael - that's comparing apples with oranges (or at least oranges with satsumas ...), as the African bee and European bee are different sub-groups

AHB (scuttelata) and EHB (pretty much most of the rest of the races minus adansoni, capus,  litorea, monticola etc.) are no more subgroups than ligustica or carnica or caucasica or lamarckii or intermissa or mellifera or iberica or carpatica all of which are lumped together as EHB.  They are all, including the African races, Apis mellifera.  The size of the bee is determined by the size of the cell, including drones, and the research I have seen on AHB success indicates that one aspect of that success is smaller, faster drones with more endurance and part of that reason is natural cell size.

>I never realized small cell drones probably cannot mate with the queen. I have no idea if this is true or not.

Of course they can.