Unanswered questions about bees??

Maddyresearch · August 22, 2016, 12:44:21 AM

Hello, I am trying to do a research project on bees but I can't seem to identify a specific question that hasn't been answered yet. I have a relatively basic knowledge of bees but my goal is to know everything there is to know and then some. For my project I'm supposed to "find a hole in the research" about my topic which is a lot harder to find than a controversy or something. I'm asking y'all if there's any unexplained occurrences or questions that may have surfaced during your years of beekeeping. Thanks for the help!

cao · August 22, 2016, 01:38:21 AM

Welcome.

Something that is asked all the time that I don't think has ever been answered is what is washboarding and why do the bees do it.

little john · August 22, 2016, 04:00:53 AM

There is an old beekeeping maxim: "3 feet or 3 miles" when relocating hives. Now whilst it's true that bees will re-adjust when moving a hive a short distance - what exactly happens when you move a hive 3 miles away ? There is a belief that the bees (somehow) adjust to their new position, but all that can be said for sure is that they don't return to the old site.

As forager bees leave the newly moved hive, they don't stop in their tracks and re-orient themselves in front of the hive, but can be seen speeding off towards where they think they were foraging yesterday, by using geographical coordinates (now false) stored in memory. So what happens to those bees - do they simply perish ? Have beekeepers been operating under a false premise for a hundred years or more ?

LJ

little john · August 22, 2016, 04:10:27 AM

Here's a good one ...

What is the preferred cavity size of the European Honey Bee ? The only research I know of in this area is that of Tom Seeley.

There are two flaws in this otherwise useful research. One was to examine the tree cavity sizes of existing wild nests, upon which research many people have based the sizes of their beehive designs. This is cum hoc, ergo propter hoc thinking, as all one can say is that bees have survived in such sized cavities (they may of course have survived despite those cavities) - and so that particular cavity size may not be optimum. Indeed, many (e.g. Oscar Perone, Charles Dadant etc) have shown that much larger cavities are desirable. So - is there an optimum size for a beehive housing the European Honey Bee, and if so, what is it ?

The second flaw can be seen in Tom's attempt to allow the bees to choose from an array of cavity sizes. In practice, the bees preferred to set up home in a nearby chimney rather than in the boxes on offer, but when access to that chimney was denied to them, they then went on to choose a box close to the size of a standard Langstroth Brood Box.

But there's a problem here. Scientists believe in the concept of tabula rasa - that when an experiment is conducted it starts with the premise of 'a blank sheet of paper'. That is, that nothing which precedes the start of an experiment can possibly influence it's results. But - bees have memory ...

Because of it's popularity, Langstroth boxes have been adopted as standard equipment by bee breeders and universities. So - the bees which Seeley worked with would undoubtedly have been raised in Langstroth boxes, and have been transported to the isolated island being used for the experiment, again within Langstroth boxes. Is it really then so surprising that when released and allowed to choose a new nest box from an array of sizes, that they should choose one with similar dimensions to that from which they'd just flown ?

This cannot be a definite conclusion to draw, of course, but I think it would be worthwhile to repeat the experiment using several colonies of bees, which had been reared, housed, and transported in different sized enclosures - as it is 'size' which is the variable under examination.

LJ

GSF · August 22, 2016, 08:26:01 AM

The only thing that two out of three beekeepers agree on is that the third one is wrong. (you might could use that somewhere) :)

Acebird · August 22, 2016, 08:44:17 AM

Quote from: Maddyresearch on August 22, 2016, 12:44:21 AM
I'm asking y'all if there's any unexplained occurrences or questions that may have surfaced during your years of beekeeping. Thanks for the help!

Welcome to the forum. I think you are going to be here a very long time because when you first start to own bees there is nothing but unexplained occurrences and questions. Many are answered here but you have to take a consensus on what is the correct answer that you will follow. LJ has given you only one, hive size. Hive size is totally dependent on the beekeepers perspective and not so much on the bees. Bees adapt to everything.

Rurification · August 22, 2016, 09:24:24 AM

Hi Maddy - Welcome to the forum. You do have your own bees, right? All the research and book learning in the world will not teach you nearly as much as keeping your own bees for several years [or decades]. And making a few years of mistakes. And finding out that the bees do not read the books. Or do what other beeks' bees do.

Read the forum every day. You'll learn a lot and see that we all have a ton of unanswered questions.

divemaster1963 · August 22, 2016, 02:37:24 PM

Here you go. Get a book that your using in your study. Follow it to a tee until you find a problem them examine it on why that happened will following to a tee the book. It will give you all the research you need.

John

Michael Bush · August 22, 2016, 06:16:39 PM

I can only think of a few thousand questions that occur to me that haven't been answered... where would I start?

Maddyresearch · August 22, 2016, 06:57:47 PM

@Little Jon

Those were very in depth questions and very helpful thank you! I am wondering though the relevance of which size cavity is preferable for bees? Is our best interest in exploring this topic going to be the happiness of the bees or the rate at which they perform their task (whatever it may be)? As for the first post, I'm wondering what you mean by bees "adjusting" or "orienting"? Does this have to do with positioning of the sun or the hive or...?
Again, thank you : )

Maddyresearch · August 22, 2016, 07:01:35 PM

@Rurification and @Acebird

Haha I don't own bees yet, and I'm definitely going to see if i could find somewhere to observe bees in a somewhat controlled environment for this project, however.
: )

Acebird · August 22, 2016, 08:24:51 PM

Maddy it is nearly impossible to control an insect. We learn all we can about them and base all our actions on what we think most will do. For the last 200 years or more you can read all the research that was done by the names that people recognize today. We recognize them by name because they wrote their observation in black and white. That is pretty much why we know of the man named Jesus Christ.
If you are into research then I would suggest you read what everyone has done prior to you taking on this challenge. For a good reader like Michael Bush it might take 6 months. For someone like me it would take 6 years to grasp 10% of what has already been done. Good luck with your research.

Maddyresearch · August 22, 2016, 09:25:26 PM

@Acebird

While yes I realize there is such an extreme extend to the collective knowledge bank of bees (in particular) I don't intend to learn everything about them in all aspects and absorb centuries of knowledge in just 1 year. I intend to study a specific question about bees and learn as much as needed to help answer that question. What I meant by controlled environment was a relatively event-less environment that I wouldn't have to factor in additional variables besides what is relevant to my question.

Acebird · August 23, 2016, 09:02:59 AM

Quote from: Maddyresearch on August 22, 2016, 09:25:26 PM
What I meant by controlled environment was a relatively event-less environment that I wouldn't have to factor in additional variables besides what is relevant to my question.

I think you are going to have a hard time with this subject matter. If you were going to limit your research to one tiny apiary like mine at one specific time of the year you would still have your hands full trying to keep out the variables. You don't have to read all the books or know everything about bees. All you have to do is put one small hive in your back yard and then you will learn real fast what you are up against for the unanswered questions about bees. One season will be an eye opener. I suggest you start with a nuc in the spring as early as you can get it.
I am trying to be helpful so good luck.

Caribou · September 01, 2016, 03:26:12 PM

Quote from: Maddyresearch on August 22, 2016, 09:25:26 PM
@Acebird

While yes I realize there is such an extreme extend to the collective knowledge bank of bees (in particular) I don't intend to learn everything about them in all aspects and absorb centuries of knowledge in just 1 year. I intend to study a specific question about bees and learn as much as needed to help answer that question. What I meant by controlled environment was a relatively event-less environment that I wouldn't have to factor in additional variables besides what is relevant to my question.

You want to become an expert in one unanswered aspect of beekeeping without studying all aspects of beekeeping. Do I understand this right? People have spent a lifetime studying bees having learned from generations of beekeepers without finding an answer and you are going to try to accomplish this in one year? Without bees? It sounds to me like you are trying to be a brain surgeon without being a doctor first.

If it is an unanswered question you won't find it in the literature. By definition, if the answer is in the literature then the question is answered. What you are likely to find is a plethora of questions in which there are multiple answers, and multiple right answers.

I'm new to beekeeping but I have come to believe that beekeeping is a lot like dating. What gets you slapped will get a grand reception for the next guy. The ladies are very forgiving and adaptable and will fix most of your mistakes. There are too many variables in the bees, the weather, the location, the plants, the diseases, and the predators to figure that any one thing will work for everyone everywhere. Good luck and let us know what you find out.

azzkell · September 17, 2016, 07:11:06 AM

Quote from: cao on August 22, 2016, 01:38:21 AM
Welcome.

Something that is asked all the time that I don't think has ever been answered is what is washboarding and why do the bees do it.

I'm with Cao on this one, have seen it first hand and have had no explanation of just why they do it. Please, someone who knows give up the answer.

BeeMaster2 · September 17, 2016, 08:21:39 AM

Quote from: azzkell on September 17, 2016, 07:11:06 AM
Quote from: cao on August 22, 2016, 01:38:21 AM
Welcome.

Something that is asked all the time that I don't think has ever been answered is what is washboarding and why do the bees do it.

I'm with Cao on this one, have seen it first hand and have had no explanation of just why they do it. Please, someone who knows give up the answer.

My answer to this it that they are sanitizing their hive.
Jim

Acebird · September 17, 2016, 08:43:20 AM

Quote from: sawdstmakr on September 17, 2016, 08:21:39 AM
My answer to this it that they are sanitizing their hive.
Jim

I agree. When we were kids if we couldn't find something to do my mother made us clean the house. I believe the same thing is happening. When more critical tasks of the hive are being worked on by other bees the idle bees clean up. In very hot weather many more bees need to get outside the hive and we call that bearding. I suspect that they are also cleaning, themselves and other areas of the hive when they beard.

PhilK · September 18, 2016, 08:50:33 PM

Brian and Jim, that doesn't count as the question being answered. What are you basing these beliefs on (other than Ace's mum used to make him clean as a kid?)

I was very interested in washboarding a while ago and no matter how far I read there was no answer to why they do it - only a few theories. Cleaning seems logical but why? Why bother cleaning outside the hive? Are they really cleaning? My hive doesn't look any different outwardly after they've been washboarding (little marks and dirt etc still in place)..

It's a topic that requires a lot more research I think!

Acebird · September 19, 2016, 08:56:56 AM

Quote from: PhilK on September 18, 2016, 08:50:33 PM
My hive doesn't look any different outwardly after they've been washboarding (little marks and dirt etc still in place)..

It is quite common up here to see poop stains on your hive in early spring. They don't seem to wash off with rain but they go away very quickly when the bees can get outside the hive. I don't just see washboarding in the hot summer. I see it in fall and spring when the weather is quite cool.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv333/acebird1/Bee%20Hive/P1040217.jpg

There are more questions answered by opinions then facts when it comes to beekeeping. If you are going to research unanswered questions about bees be prepared for writers cramps.