requeening mean hive

[KeyLargoBees]

What Phil said.....but if that doesnt work

its south texas....you have fire ants.....natures garbage disposals.....if the nurse bees don't clean-out the dead brood to your satisfaction pull the abandoned frames out and put them in the shade near an ant mound and they will clean it out ;-)

[CliveHive]

Thanks - - Will do.  Think I figured it out - - - , and will appreciate review of a painful lesson - -   When I split the hive the split went onto the old hive landing board, and the original hive was moved about 20' away and allowed to 'calm down' for a couple of days, while I prep'd the new site.  Returning bees found the split - - no problem.  I thought (wrongly) that house bees in the original hive would live on stored honey until I got them moved to their new home - - - but - - when the girls didn't show up from their foraging, the queen shut-down - - - and the house bees shut down - - and the small hive beetles didn't shut down - - - and when I moved the hives, and got a look inside, the split was healthy & happy and getting to know their new queen,  and the original colony had mostly dead.  A lot to happen in 2.5 days - - - .  Do I have this right? 

Will newspaper transfer this evening - - moving the now queenless original hive deep box on top of the active and newly queen'd split box, with a couple of sheets of newspaper (with a couple of small slits) between the two boxes.  Sorry to be a PIA, but I am a little goosey after screwing this up, and appreciate the 'double-check'

Thanks

Rick

[KeyLargoBees]

Something else went wrong...house bees will live off stores and don't require foragers....but if you reduced the strength of the colony enough and there wasnt enough population to keep the beetles intact they could have slimed the stores.....2.5 days seems a little too fast for that to happen though...

Any other thoughts?

[CliveHive]

I saw maybe 15-20 beetles - - no beetle larvae - - and no slime on honey frames - - enough dead bees to cover the bottom of the hive - - -

The stronger split box had the larger population of original, mean-queen bees, a large percentage of which were out when I did the split.  Could they go on a 'search and destroy' mission when they got home from work, find the original house bee population (new queen brood) and take them out?  If they did that, would they have left the queen? 

I found (and removed, rather than pinched) the old queen, and put her in a screen-topped jar with a few grooms I got from the hive - - but I think I got flying bees and not nurse bees - - - they didn't get along - - the queen killed the two I put in there to take care of her, which lead me to the 'bee-war' theory - - -

I am optimistic that the re-combine is a good fix, and will get me back on the road to a healthy hive.  As long as I have to disturb them one more time, I'll have a look for the new, marked BeeWeaver queen to make sure she has settled-in.  If so, I 'll leave things alone until we get into the cotton flower honeyflow, then add a queen excluder and shallow super to the stack.  Does that sound reasonable?

[CliveHive]

just finished newspaper combine. 

Started inspection with strong, split hive.  It had three full frames of honey, 2 partial honey frames, a frame of old brood and four empty frames with bees starting to draw-out comb, and 2 queen cells,  I went through all the frames twice, and couldn't locate the queen introduced on 27th April (set free May 1).  It was a marked queen - - I should have seen it - - - - .  Bees buzzed around me, but did not attack.  I did not notice any attempts to sting.  Laid down newspaper, held it in place with a queen excluder grid so I could hunt for the queen in the lower box next inspection, and went to the failed/failing box - - -

I had placed oil reservoirs on the feet of the hive stand last inspection.  There were no beetles or ants in the oilreservoirs around the hive feet.   Inspected beetle traps inserted between frames during last inspection - - - one had 30 or 40 dead fire ants & no small hive beetles in one trap, and nothing in the other.  That hive is now queenless, but the bee population appears to have increased since last inspection.  Hive beetles and ants are gone.  One frame has two new queen cells.  Bees are docile.

Placed failed/failing deep box over newspaper on strong/split box, and returned for closer inspection of failed hive base (covered with dead bees).
It was moist to sticky, with dead bees 'clumped together' with a moist, semi-viscous stuff - - - not gooy - - - and not dry - - - just semi-moist.  Is that beetle slime?
on the other hand, I had added an old fashioned top feeder with a pint of 50/50 sugar/water fed through a top with a very small nail hole in the lid.  That might have found its' way into the hive base - - - 

Those are the pieces, but I can't make them fit into a cohesive story.  The good news is the colony seems to be 'on-the-mend' in terms of growth, stability elimination of invaders, and the bees are finally calm enough to live with.   

I would welcome your thoughts/comments.

[PhilK]

So no queen seen in either hive, but queen cells seen? Did you see any eggs? Sounds like you've got yourself an interesting story here! Wait for one of the experts to chime in on this one

[CliveHive]

Original Queen & Hive

Put in service Late February
Grew quickly, but produced increasingly aggressive bees resulting in re-queen with Florida mated Italian 3/24.
4/10 inspection showed new brood and honey - - - rapid hive expansion, still ugly bee disposition.
4/20 Neighbor revolt forced hive move out of suburbia (they didn't like getting stung :)
4/24 Hive continued rapid growth - - added deep hive super in prep for split. 
4/27 Split hive and introduced BeeWeaver queen to split in 10-frame deep box hive
4/30 Moved original hive and split to new location in cotton fields
Inspection showed original hive in steep decline with many dead bees, but 3/24 Italian Queen in place
The Split hive was healthy, with many bees, but marked BeeWeaver queen not released from candy box - - My error - - poor job of clearing cork. 
  Released the BeeWeaver queen to the split colony.
5/02 Placed sick original hive in oil baths around stand to get rid of ants and hive beetles, added top feeder, and removed queen that was introduced 3/24, since her
   influence did little to calm the hive.  Left hive queenless for two days - - -
5/04 This is where I notice the original hive appears to be re-jeuvanated and has fresh queen cells.  They may have been started when I removed the Florida queen
   two days earlier, but I didn't see them - - - but that could be me - - - I'm still learning how to look, and what to look for - - -

   I could not find the marked BeeWeaver queen in the split hive  that was put in the hive in a candy-box on 4/27, and released on 4/30.  Perhaps she was there and perhaps not.
   Hindsight says I should have kept looking until I found her, dead or alive - - but I didn't.  I also don't know when the queen cells were made in the split hive - - - but assume they
   must be from the Florida queen's brood that was transfered when the original hive was split. 

Believing - -

1.  I had split too soon - - before I had enough bee population to support two hives - - and - -

2.  My Florida re-queen was continuing to throw mean bees - - -

- - Today, 5/04, I did a newspaper transfer, and reunited the original bees (now in a queenless deep 10-frame) as a super,  with  the active, honey-laden, healthy split 10frame hive - -
The one where I turned loose a BeeWeaver queen 4 days earlier - - - but can't find today - - -

So - - that's where I am - - -

I think I either have The BeeWeaver queen, or I don't.  If I do, she will take out whatever queen cells are being developed - - - {Oh, schizer!  I have to get the queen grid out from between the two boxes! - - first thing tomorrow.} and she will go on to be the reigning queen - - or - - one of the queens from the queen cells will emerge, and take over the hive.

 

[KeyLargoBees]

at some point you need to leave them alone to do their thing Clive....they are going to get tired of you messing with them and abscond on you if you dont ;-)

[CliveHive]

I'll be happy to start now - - seriously - - and I appreciate the advice.  They seem happy and healthy - - either they have the BeeWeaver queen or will soon have one they hatched-out themselves from the Florida queen brood.  There are three or four empty frames in each box, so there is nothing I need to do in there. 
The only remaining concern is the queen excluder between the two boxes.  It doesn't seem like a good idea to have a different queen in each box, and it looks like I might be heading in that direction.  It should only take a minute to pull that out of there, but please let me know if you think that might be a problem. 

I can see the things I have been doing are no doubt stressful to the bees.  I'm expecting cotton blooms in a week, and hoping the workload will get the colony focused on making honey, and make my only involvement adding supers.   

Thanks for your patience

[CliveHive]

 - - And so I did - - (leave them alone) - - and so they did - - - (fill their first super with honey) - - and so I started another colony. 
I have five now, and will have another 3 or 4 before the end of the season.  Three are mean as Hillary, but they are well away from
polite company and won't do any damage.  I'll let them build the colony while I am out of country for three weeks, and re-queen
when I return.

Some common themes running through the comments are really true.  If you leave the bees alone, they will usually figure it out.
After all, they've been working on it for a couple million years - - -

Thanks to all the folks who helped me get over newbee, hover-mom jitters.  I may not be cured, but have moved a long way in that direction. 
Both me and the bees are much happier - - -

[KeyLargoBees]

Make sure they have room to grow if you are going to be out of the country for three weeks.....not sure what your flow is like but its entirely possible for them to fill a super and run out of room during a three week period.

Other than that enjoy your time abroad ;-)

[CliveHive]

Thanks Jeff.

I'm watching it. - - - one frame mostly empty, and 2 half empty in the super - - .  I put on a 10 frame shallow, which was all I had 'ready to go', so I figure/hope that will hold it. 

[KeyLargoBees]

Probably...south Texas should be drying up this time of year but with all the rain who know what might bloom late ;-)

[CliveHive]

Still appears to be running strong.   I' out of country until July  12, so will just have to see what I have when I return.

https://d.docs.live.net/2f3aef950036ff43/Documents/Document%20(2).docx

[CliveHive]

Oh, my.  Re-reading this thread, Im amazed on two fronts;  1.  That I have any bees., 2.  That you had the patience to put up with me!  Well - - thanks. 
Here's what I;ve learned - -

Some of it - - well - - a lot of this "beekeeping" - - has to do with the pure joy of learning something you didn't know before.  And so, the "Tjorborg Strategy"   - - -

While traveling in Iceland, I met a transplanted Norwegian who was trying to introduce honey bees to Iceland.  Among the many challenges he faced, was fighting the extremely short  mating & honey-flow season of the far North.  I was fortunate enough to visit his hives, and see the magnificent Carniolian bees that made-up his six-colony apiary.

In our 1-hour trip from  Reykjavik to his Apiary on the semi-famous White River salmon river, he explained the process of "re-queening" he had learned as a child some 32 years earlier in Norway.  He promised a "100%" success rate, if I followed his advice - - he had never seen it fail - - - . 

Step #1 -

Place the new queen in a box with a couple of frames of drawn-out comb.  Period.  No honey - - no brood.  No bees.  Just the new queen in an empty box, queen excluder between queen and entrance. 

Step 2 -

During an active foraging day, remove the old hive 30' feet from its' original site, and replace it (ie, put it in the exact position of the old hive) with the hive containing the new queen.  Pinch the old queen - - leave that hive queenless until the new hive has released the queen. 

Step 3 -

In three to 4 days, after the new queen has been released, do a newspaper re-combine with the new brood chamber. 

The theory - - -

A.  When the old hive becomes queenless, they will become despondent, and go into decline for a couple of days (They will also lose almost all of their aggression).  No foragers will be coming in - - - (they will all be going to the "new" hive).  These are house bees - - - not ready to fly, but able to sustain themselves with honey stores - - -

B.  When foragers return to the "new" hive, the first thing they notice is there is no guiding queen pheromones to tell them what to do next - - - other than the new queen scent, saying - - - "let me outta here!"  They will revert to their early  bee instincts to release the queen in distress.  They are evolutionary  steps removed from nurse, or house bee concerns, so their loyalty to the old queen is diminished - - -their loyalty is to the hive.  They readily accept the new queen, and cluster around her to release her so she can proceed to produce brood. 

In Fact - - -

It worked exactly that way, except the original hive was from a queenless swarm and packed with 3 frames of brood, and two of honey.    The bees were healthy, and immediately began storing honey.  They built a pretty healthy hive - - but - - after 4 weeks, there were no queen cells.  Why should they?    They had brood hatching, and honey in the larder. 

Enter the Tjborg strategy - - -

Consider - -

At the time the main hive was moved, the house bees, and brood-becoming-bees never knew the influence of queen pheromones.  They were 'doing-just-fine' and the last thing they needed was some queen dropping in to change their routine - - so it was natural they would be hostile toward (and kill) a new queen - - -

So Consider - - -

The Tjborg strategy gives the old house bees time to consider what it means to be queenless,. as well as gives the foragers time to consider what it would be like to be queenless, and when they are re-combined 4 days later, how really fine it is to be one big happy family. 

Note - - -

1.  My first surprise was the lack of activity at both new and old hive entrances.  In retrospect, it was perfectly natural.  The old hive had no foragers, and the new hive was busy fussing over the new queen.

2.  Second surprise was how gently old hive foragers clustered around new queen - - giving her release and comfort priority over foraging activity. 

And So - - -

Unless things go totally off-track - - - I would say the Tjorborg Strategy performs as advertised - -which is to say - - pretty darn well!  - give it a try - - - -

[GSF]

Good read, thanks for the info.

[bwallace23350]

Thanks for that about the requeening.