Treating varroa

RustyUPNY · August 28, 2016, 03:12:33 PM

One of my hives had a count of 6 today so looks like I'll be treating and. I wanted to see what the people's thoughts were on my two options...
Option 1. Mite away quick strips
Option 2. Removing the supers and treating with oxalic acid which I believe would take at least 3 treatments due to the warm temps?

Blacksheep · August 28, 2016, 04:25:15 PM

I am in the process of spraying them with Mineral oil thru a insect sprayer which heats the oil to make a heavy smoke which suffocates the mites.Treatment must be done every 7 days for 3 weeks in a row!Fat Bee man treats using this method!

Barhopper · August 28, 2016, 04:48:35 PM

Quote from: Blacksheep on August 28, 2016, 04:25:15 PM
I am in the process of spraying them with Mineral oil thru a insect sprayer which heats the oil to make a heavy smoke which suffocates the mites.Treatment must be done every 7 days for 3 weeks in a row!Fat Bee man treats using this method!

Seriously? You need to do some research on that. Search bee source.com for some information. There's a long post about a study one member did. You also need to research the fatbeeman. He no longer does that. Additionally, he sells OAV equipment now.

Groundhawg · August 28, 2016, 05:29:08 PM

Quote from: Barhopper on August 28, 2016, 04:48:35 PM
Quote from: Blacksheep on August 28, 2016, 04:25:15 PM
I am in the process of spraying them with Mineral oil thru a insect sprayer which heats the oil to make a heavy smoke which suffocates the mites.Treatment must be done every 7 days for 3 weeks in a row!Fat Bee man treats using this method!
Seriously? You need to do some research on that. Search bee source.com for some information. There's a long post about a study one member did. You also need to research the fatbeeman. He no longer does that. Additionally, he sells OAV equipment now.

Blacksheep, please do as Barhopper suggested. I do not think you will find that sprayed mineral is as good as once thought. Food grade mineral oil in a propane fogger ? the mineral oil coats the bees and mites causing the bees to groom each other and the mites to fall off much that same as
Powdered sugar ? the powdered sugar works in effect like the mineral oil.

You might want to read this from the forum here in 2005 -

http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=2059.0

yes2matt · August 28, 2016, 08:10:55 PM

Quote from: RustyUPNY on August 28, 2016, 03:12:33 PM
One of my hives had a count of 6 today so looks like I'll be treating and. I wanted to see what the people's thoughts were on my two options...
Option 1. Mite away quick strips
Option 2. Removing the supers and treating with oxalic acid which I believe would take at least 3 treatments due to the warm temps?

Goodness, I wish I could talk about one of my hives having six. :/

GSF · August 29, 2016, 03:20:25 PM

Blacksheep, I'll try to post a link to what barhopper is referring to. It's a pretty good read. Basically this beek kept a record on his treatments over a period of time. Initially it worked great. Later on it seemed like the mites had figured how to do an end run around it. Right at the last the mites were exploding and exploding very quickly on him. He did the OAV thing and the mite population got back under control pretty quickly.

RustyUPNY · August 30, 2016, 09:11:37 PM

So... Would anyone like to answer my question... Pull the supers and treat with OA x3 weeks or stick with MAQS?

texanbelchers · August 30, 2016, 10:57:56 PM

It looks like OAV is the best option right now. There are discussions about the need to rotate treatments, but that debate rolls on. I don't know when our temps would fit the MAQS requirements except in the winter, but I suspect you are ok in UPNY.

tjc1 · August 30, 2016, 11:04:14 PM

Well, those are 2 possibilities, but do you mean to trickle the OA or vaporize it? As noted it has been recommended to rotate treatments to avoid developing resisitance., I have used both, and both have worked for me, though the maqs seems to hit the bees harder for the first day or two. The OA vapor (which is what form I used) doesn't seem to faze them at all.Temps in the NE should certainly be fine for the maqs

RustyUPNY · August 31, 2016, 08:29:56 AM

If I use the OA I will be vaporizing it. I was trying to not pull the supers off only because there is a massive golden rod bloom coming in right now. However if it meant saving my bees I would...

I have two hives in my back yard and I have read some places that it's best to treat both even if only one has the mite issue. I am not sure I subscribe to that idea in terms of giving one a medication that is not needed but the argument is that there is probably enough drift between bees from hive to hive that it's probably worth doing. Any thoughts on that one?

Acebird · August 31, 2016, 08:59:29 AM

Any treatment of varroa is going to kill off the weak and propagate the strong over time. I don't see this as a long term solution. It would make more sense to treat the bees with something that would make them stronger but even that has a dependency attached to it. If the managed bee becomes stronger it might put the feral bees at risk. Without a feral population important genes could be lost. There is no easy solution.
I have decided to let nature decide what lives and what dies because in the wild that is what happens and it has worked for millions of years.
Disclaimer: I can do this because my standard of living is not dependent on bees.

Acebird · August 31, 2016, 09:11:58 AM

Quote from: RustyUPNY on August 31, 2016, 08:29:56 AM
I was trying to not pull the supers off only because there is a massive golden rod bloom coming in right now.

I believe that if your hive is strong enough to pull in this flow now then you already have your winter bees. The treatment will not make more bees in time to catch the flow. If the hive doesn't have it's winter bees then your not going to get that flow.

Quotethe argument is that there is probably enough drift between bees from hive to hive that it's probably worth doing. Any thoughts on that one?

If you treat one hive in an apiary you automatically have treated them all. Maybe not effectively but they all got a treatment. Treating is not my thing but treating hives that do not show a problem is way worse than treating the hive that does IMO.

imcamod36 · August 31, 2016, 01:22:52 PM

We just treated with MAQS and now wish we had not. Lost all our queens and had to combine three hives into one because over half the bees in each were lost. We were on the higher end of the recommended temps but still within range. Even provided some additional ventilation for the first day. Don't think we will use them again.

sc-bee · August 31, 2016, 08:05:19 PM

Quote from: Barhopper on August 28, 2016, 04:48:35 PM

Seriously? You need to do some research on that. Search bee source.com for some information. There's a long post about a study one member did. You also need to research the fatbeeman. He no longer does that. Additionally, he sells OAV equipment now.

Yep whatever the thing is at the time..it ain't mineral oil fumigators no more..

Quote from: RustyUPNY on August 28, 2016, 03:12:33 PM
One of my hives had a count of 6 today

Goodness, I wish I could talk about one of my hives having six. :/
[/quote]

Thinking he means 6 per 100 so 18 per 300

Quote from: tjc1 on August 30, 2016, 11:04:14 PM
Well, those are 2 possibilities, but do you mean to trickle the OA or vaporize it? As noted it has been recommended to rotate treatments to avoid developing resisitance.

The resistance thing keeps coming up.. not likely because of the way/mode the OA seems to kill the mites.

Quote from: RustyUPNY on August 31, 2016, 08:29:56 AM
If I use the OA I will be vaporizing it. I was trying to not pull the supers off only because there is a massive golden rod bloom coming in right now.

Just place cardboard or plywood between the brood chambers and honey. Remove it in 5 or 10 minutes. The OA crystallizes back fast.

texanbelchers · August 31, 2016, 09:58:09 PM

Ding Ding Ding and we have a winner. Sc-bee has it. From what I have read MAQS & OA Dribble are hard on queens/brood and interrupts the hive. OA V doesn't seem to slow them down and OA hasn't developed resistance from years of use in Europe (no, there isn't a guarantee), but takes a bit more beekeeper effort.

The treatment free debate will rage on, but OAV appears to be a good option when a treatment is required.

Of course, when Monsanto gets their RNAi technology working it will fix everything.

Acebird · August 31, 2016, 10:19:08 PM

Quote from: texanbelchers on August 31, 2016, 09:58:09 PM
From what I have read MAQS & OA Dribble are hard on queens/brood and interrupts the hive. OA V doesn't seem to slow them down and OA hasn't developed resistance from years of use in Europe

This is an interesting statement Tex. The dribble which is what the Europeans have been using for years is hard on queens/brood and you use that statement to say "hasn't developed resistance"? Are you speaking of the mites or the queens and brood?
If you are going to use a pesticide to kill a bug on a bug you will have collateral damage.

Dallasbeek · August 31, 2016, 10:26:04 PM

Quote from: Acebird on August 31, 2016, 10:19:08 PM
Quote from: texanbelchers on August 31, 2016, 09:58:09 PM
From what I have read MAQS & OA Dribble are hard on queens/brood and interrupts the hive. OA V doesn't seem to slow them down and OA hasn't developed resistance from years of use in Europe

This is an interesting statement Tex. The dribble which is what the Europeans have been using for years is hard on queens/brood and you use that statement to say "hasn't developed resistance"? Are you speaking of the mites or the queens and brood?
If you are going to use a pesticide to kill a bug on a bug you will have collateral damage.

I think an insect or mite or human builds up a resistance to a pesticide that's a chemical. OA seems more analagous to a brick. It's an acid, not a chemical. I'm certain someone else will be able to more eloquently expand on this, but this is my initial thought.

texanbelchers · September 01, 2016, 12:13:55 AM

Quote from: Acebird on August 31, 2016, 10:19:08 PM
Quote from: texanbelchers on August 31, 2016, 09:58:09 PM
From what I have read MAQS & OA Dribble are hard on queens/brood and interrupts the hive. OA V doesn't seem to slow them down and OA hasn't developed resistance from years of use in Europe

This is an interesting statement Tex. The dribble which is what the Europeans have been using for years is hard on queens/brood and you use that statement to say "hasn't developed resistance"? Are you speaking of the mites or the queens and brood?
If you are going to use a pesticide to kill a bug on a bug you will have collateral damage.

To clarify, I was speaking of damage to the bees by the MAQS and dribble method. The resistance buildup was in reference to the mites.

As already stated, OA does not appear to act as a "normal" chemical pesticide in this application. From the pictures I have seen it is more like burning your hands and feet so you can't get to or hold onto your food.

little john · September 01, 2016, 03:49:57 AM

Quote from: Acebird on August 31, 2016, 10:19:08 PM

This is an interesting statement Tex. The dribble which is what the Europeans have been using for years is hard on queens/brood and you use that statement to say "hasn't developed resistance"? Are you speaking of the mites or the queens and brood?
If you are going to use a pesticide to kill a bug on a bug you will have collateral damage.

It's impossible to generalise like this. It's true that many people still use dribble, but VOA has become increasingly popular. At the time of writing, there is no evidence whatsoever of any resistance having developed in the use of OA by either method.

There is no recorded evidence that VOA is hard on either bees, open brood or Queens (capped brood is not affected) - thus it's important not to confuse the two methods of administration.

The BIG difference - as I see it - between the two methods of administering OA, is that with sugar-syrup dribble there is a high probability of the bees ingesting some of the compound. That could cause harm - which is why I've never used dribble. But with VOA - which is a more accurate abbreviation to use (*) - the OA dust generated is unable to enter the body of the bee (thanks to the hairs surrounding and protecting the spiracles), and thus contacts the mite only on the exterior of the bee's body.
LJ

(*) Vapourised Oxalic Acid describes the process perfectly - if we use the word 'Vapourised' in the past tense - for OA only exists as an invisible vapour for a brief period when it first leaves the heat source.
As soon as the OA becomes visible in the form of a white cloud, this is an indication that the OA has reverted to it's solid state as a fine microcrystalline dust, the particle size of which is too large to be inhaled by the bee.

In contrast, MAQs produce Formic Acid vapour which, in this gaseous form, can be readily inhaled by the bees. Presumably it is this difference which lies behind the safety (from the bees' point of view) of VOA, compared with the numerous tragic reports of MAQ use.

Acebird · September 01, 2016, 09:16:59 AM

Quote from: little john on September 01, 2016, 03:49:57 AM
It's true that many people still use dribble, but VOA has become increasingly popular.

These are the key points 1. You already mentioned the collateral damage that can occur with OA dribble and 2. OAV is new. There is not a long history of use, yet claims keep coming up to the effect that there is.
If the OA works by burning the feet of the mite why wouldn't it do the same to the feet of the bee, it's eyes, antenna or any other sensory gland? It might not kill the bee but it sure as heck has to make a difference.