Epipens up to 600 buckaroos

[flyboy]

Inaccurate.  you do not know the testing process.

This could turn into a you know what contest, but if you insist just go read all of the books that talk about the chicany that is used by researchers to bend results. Read the books (if you have a ton of time to read them all), written by Doctors who see the light after years of prescribing and curing very little. Read the number of books written by ex-drug salespeople (male and female) who finally started to piece together the real story behind their marketting prowess/trickery and it's results in patients. Often it is when one of these PPL sees a relative die or become an addict with their life ruined from taking their wares (drugs) that they see the light and they either get out of the business or turn into crusaders.
http://oneradionetwork.com/latest/alternative-media-blows-the-lid-on-big-pharmas-massive-bribery-network-article/

Science is so easy to fix, you start with a result and work backwards. The lure of big money, University grants, fame is too much to say "no" to. The government just rubber stamps it as is witnessed by the stuff that was exposed in the Vaxxed "movie" which was just plain good old flat out lying?. Wink wink 'All for one and one for all', until one of the researchers just had such a terrible heartache about lying and the destruction that it wrought, that he blew the whistle and even then, nothing can happen because Congress has to supena him in order for anything to be changed and they are all bought and paid for?. Like who is going to grow a set and disturb the barn floor.

Reminds me of the cartoon that showed a young researcher suddenly exclaiming to his boss that
"Eureka, I found the cure to cancer.
The old guy says "The H#ll you have, we'll lose all of our grants and have to close down".

Take a wild guess how many gazillions of dollars have been raised for "a cure" and they are still pawning the same ole crap that they started selling after WW2 when they had all of this excess mustard gas and they figured out a way to pawn it off on an unsuspecting public. They dressed it up in the name of chemotherapy and it still has the same 2.1% rate of 5 year survival rate that it had from the get go. They have a wonderful way of lying about that figure which includes some incredibly slick techniques like not including the most difficult cancers to cure as well as a number of other tricks like if you die from chemo before all the treatments are done they do not include you in the stats.

The methods used to cheat science used seem so benign, until you really pay attention. Plus they can do as many researches as it takes and then cherry pick the ones that prove, however thinly, that there is a "benefit" to their 'product'. This is of course why celebrex, thalidomide etc. etc. make it through the cracks. In fact thalidomide is still sold in third world countries because PPL in first world countries made such a stink.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/07/12/drug-companies-on-scientific-fraud.aspx

Nowadays there is a website where honest researchers publish their research before they start and then after they finish so that there can be less chance for lying by not telling anyone about a failed research.

Then there is the stuff that is hard to prove, like small companies that have come up with real tangible products for treating and curing a wide range of diseases only to be bullied by the AMA and drug co's and FDA via the legal system via driving researchers crazy with ridiculous court cases, or in some cases with out and out criminal activity such as destroying laboratories, stealing documentation, equipment etc and doing the same thing that the AMA did to the chiropractors with their campaign of disinformation, and misrepresentation. Lately about 30 some natural health practitioners/researchers primarily in the FLA area have mysterious died, such as shooting themselves in the head and then jumping into a river. Hmmmmm suicide. That's a neat trick. http://www.naturalnews.com/052975_holistic_doctor_deaths_thermography_cancer_detection.html

https://www.davidwolfe.com/breaking-29-holistic-doctorspractitioners-found-poisoned-some-nearly-dead-another-attack-on-alternative-medicine/

http://truththeory.com/2016/06/26/50-holistic-doctors-have-mysteriously-died-in-the-last-year-but-whats-being-done-about-it/

I of course am not suggesting that all researchers are crooks, or government employees are liars or that all medications are poison, but the problem is that it is so easy for the crooks to win, and when you take drugs blindly as most do, you are playing Russian roulette and if you are taking more than one you are living on the edge and run a decent chance of dying there.

Businesses are created to make money and so is the Mafia and so is Bilary apparently.

Iphones cost about three hundred to make and sell for three times that so 300% is no where near the markup for drugs like 569,958% for Xanex

http://time.com/3426087/apple-iphone-6-cost/

http://oneradionetwork.com/health-articles/disgusting-even-huge-11-billion-fines-dont-stop-big-pharma-article/

http://oneradionetwork.com/newsflash/50-signs-that-the-u-s-health-care-system-is-a-gigantic-money-making-scam-that-is-about-to-collapse-article/

http://oneradionetwork.com/products-new-technologies-articles/former-drug-rep-tells-tales-of-other-than-the-best-behavior/

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/11/05/health-liberty-and-forced-vaccination.aspx

http://prescriptiondrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=005528

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_withdrawn_drugs

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/12/04/webmd-obamacare.aspx

[Kathyp]

Still, I agree with Kathy (I think) that the purpose of business is to make money.

The equally important point is that market forces control price and quality.  When the government picks winners and losers, market forces are removed.  We have not had market forces in medicine since people demanded that someone else pay for their care. 

The purpose of the FDA was to separate for the population the snake oil from the cod liver oil.  They have gone very far past that job.

[Kathyp]

Flyboy, I invest in different kinds of medical companies, among them pharmaceutical companies.  I keep a pretty close eye on what and how they do things.  I know what it costs and how long it takes to bring a drug to market, and how many (most) are rejected or held up by the FDA.  One drug may cost billions to go through the process and 10 others that have cost millions in development will be turned down.

I am not making the argument that all companies are honest or good.  Only that most people do not understand the cost and the added cost by government to bring something to market. 

It is your choice whether you take a thing or not.  Having that thing available for the person who chooses it is as important as your right to reject it. 

Generic Xanax (Alprazolam)  will run between 12 and 20 dollars without insurance for 30 depending on dose.  Some of the sites you use for info are off the wall.  Check your info sources.  Mercola is a fruit loop...just to name one....

[flyboy]

Flyboy, I invest in different kinds of medical companies, among them pharmaceutical companies.  I keep a pretty close eye on what and how they do things.  I know what it costs and how long it takes to bring a drug to market, and how many (most) are rejected or held up by the FDA.  One drug may cost billions to go through the process and 10 others that have cost millions in development will be turned down.

Ah so since you invest in them, you have a vested interest in, or a horse in this race. I understand why you are so interested in this discussion.

Fact of the matter is that he who has the gold makes the rules, and ever since the Rockefellas and Carnegies etc took over the drug business back in the early 1900's, (by amoungst other things shutting down most of the medical schools at the time) after he was slowed down by the government in his monopolistic activities in the oil business, he turned his attention to the drug business which he had learned from his father (who was a carnival barker that sold petroleum as a cure for all disease) that there was lots of gold in them thar hills. Drug hills that is.

So he set up another monopoly, but since he learned from the oil business about how he looked bad in the public eye, he did a better and more quiet job of running the monopoly. Then he used his money to buy politicians and create the FDA as a government enforcement arm of his new monopoly. This kind of thing is easy to do. Bush did it with Homeland Security which is just a scam like Kings and Queens have used since forever to control the populace. Caesar et al did it, ad nauseum.

Read "The Prince" by Machiavelli, which is a manual for how to keep the natives in line or "Getting their minds right". Here's a free download of it: http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince00.htm

So the deal is that they make the rules and make it ridiculously expensive to certify drugs, so most companies cannot afford it. But not a problem for the big dawgs, because it's like Hollywood, in that if you get a winner you need a  supertanker to carry the dinero.

As far as "rejected and being held up by the FDA" one must look at cases like Aspartame which was rejected by the FDA as not safe etc. but then when Good ole Donald Rumsfield (Searle chairman, Searle holds the patent on Aspartame) played the government game by appointing PPL who were obviously beholden to and invested in the decision... and bingo, dispite the science that showed Aspartame to be bad news, it was approved. The Gov. we love.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robbie-gennet/donald-rumsfeld-and-the-s_b_805581.html

BTW I have a friend who is an addict of Pepsi and is now legally blind, cannot walk and is basically a basket case. These symptoms are all the stuff mentioned in the science and public testimony about spurious neuological/cerebral damage. Basically, it literally rots the brain leaving holes behind. Read Daniel Amen's books on the brain.
h

It is your choice whether you take a thing or not.

That is a fascinating statement.

Most PPL know nothing about science, government, the things that the wealthy do to to milk them of their money. They might guess it, but PPL generally accept and believe that FDA doesn't mean "Fear and Death Aministration".

So when they go to a Doc and the Doc gives them a drug and then another, they guess that the Doc gave them something that has  "Evidence based Science" behind it. They have no idea that drugs are well known (if you know how to look online or get hold of the package insert on drugs, that you have to have an electron microscope to read) to never have been tested for their reactions with other drugs, so they blithely take it and fall dead, or worse, become an invalid leaving behind spouses, children and so forth to pick up the pieces. Here they paid taxes (4.36 billion dollars) to support this monolithic corrupt institution and it effectively failed them as it does to enough PPL to annually amount to being the third largest killer in the US. Some PPL argue the largest killer in the country.

For the record I have been told by an MD that most MDs do not even read package inserts, but just swallow what drug reps (who are just high paid salespeople) feed them.

Having that thing available for the person who chooses it is as important as your right to reject it.

Woowee, now there's a good one. Open the floodgates. Lets put heroin in candy for kiddies, maybe kiddy porn at the corner store. Kathy said so. Coca Cola after all did have cocaine in it up to the early 1900's. Women's makeup had lead in which of course caused serious neurolgical issues.

Some of the sites you use for info are off the wall.  Check your info sources.  Mercola is a fruit loop...just to name one....

That is totally lame. Mercola is probably one of the most visited/trusted sites on the net. He obviously doesn't fit into your investment portfolio, (and probably your carreer path) so I see why you made that statement. You just make a statement with no proof and everyone is supposed to accept it. Sounds like a religion. I suppose the N Y Times is a frootloop paper also? Actually what I have said is often from JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association) and the Allopathic websites. Maybe do some reading outside the company line. Might save your life.

[Kathyp]

I have no interest in price gouging or monopolies.  You seem to have me riding both sides of the fence.  I am for competition and market forces on prices and products without undue government interference.....even when it means I might earn less as a shareholder.  Yup, some of us care about free markets! 

You obviously have firmly held opinions and I'll leave you to them.  If you had been around here a while you'd know that I am consistent in mine. 

[little john]

As I see it, the only reason the Epipen is so expensive, is because of the patent on it.  But - the patent is not for the drug itself, but for the mode of it's delivery.  As soon as you get away from that novel mode of delivery, then the market price for a near-enough equivalent product can be a tiny fraction of that currently being charged for Epipens.

The arguments being expressed regarding the need for on-going multi-billion dollar investments in drug research are somewhat irrelevant in this instance.
LJ

[CrazyTalk]

The argument that this is a problem CAUSED by regulation is absurd. It's a perfect example of how unconstrained markets work best for whoever has the most leverage - not necessarily the consumer.

you need only look at the companies that have tried to enter the market and who has blocked them.  The FDA and the patent lawyers...in spite of the fact that auto injectors are used for other drugs and by multiple companies.  The inaccurate dosing complaint was pretty lame.  The company accused made the required adjustments and was still kept from the market.

What specific companies have tried to enter the Epinephrine auto-injector market and been blocked by the goverment? Mylan's main competitor issued a VOLUNTARY recall because their product doesn't work.

Being kept off the market because you can't produce a product that is safe not a bad thing. We were not better off when medicine was the wild west and companies were regularly killing people with their products.

[flyboy]

The purpose of the FDA was to separate for the population the snake oil from the cod liver oil.  They have gone very far past that job.

Interestingly the original snake oil story is quite different from the modern version and was/is another example of the drug industry making up a lie to sell their own garbage.

Snake oil comes originally from China and is derived from water snakes and has been used for who knows how long there for pain relief. The Chinese workers that came over to work on the railway brought it with htem. The Allopaths wanted to sell their meds which were probably just booze and marijuana at the time and possibly cocaine and heroin based. So they made up a story which had just enough truth in it to be believable. When charlatans at the time saw that snake oil really worked, they started trying to get it from rattlesnakes etc. and sold it at county fairs. Rattlesnakes by comparison have only 8% of the active ingredients while the water snakes have 20%.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/snake-oil-salesmen-knew-something/

So the name stuck. Then a Doctor in San Francisco back in the 1989 decided to lay the story to rest forever and did the science that proved finally that the real snake oil from Chinese water snakes is a very real and effective pain killer. Aside from the carrier oil, the 25% of the product contained a variety of acids etc that do the magic. It has been studied in Japan and mice that were treated with it actually got smarter.

If you want more details read "The Rife Handbook" by Nenah Sylver, PHD.

[Kathyp]

Interestingly the original snake oil story is quite different from the modern version and was/is another example of the drug industry making up a lie to sell their own garbage.

met?a?phor
ˈmedəˌf?r,ˈmedəˌfər/
noun
a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.
"?I had fallen through a trapdoor of depression,? said Mark, who was fond of theatrical metaphors"
synonyms:   figure of speech, image, trope, analogy, comparison, symbol, word painting/picture
"the profusion of metaphors in her everyday speech has gotten pretty tiresome"
a thing regarded as representative or symbolic of something else, especially something abstract.
"the amounts of money being lost by the company were enough to make it a metaphor for an industry that was teetering"

[Kathyp]

Being kept off the market because you can't produce a product that is safe not a bad thing. We were not better off when medicine was the wild west and companies were regularly killing people with their products.

That is not what I advocate.  I am pointing out that the FDA, like all alphabet agencies, has gone beyond its mandate to often become an impediment to competition.

[Kathyp]

As I see it, the only reason the Epipen is so expensive, is because of the patent on it.

auto injectors are made by a number of different companies and used in a number of different drugs.  They are not rocket science.  there was indeed a patent challenge and it was used as a way to block competitors, but since there are alternatives, it should not have been.