Old world carniolans

Grwaskom · December 06, 2016, 06:29:30 PM

Would like to find a breeder. If anyone knows of one would appreciate the info

BeeMaster2 · December 06, 2016, 09:33:38 PM

I cannot provide you with an answer but it would help if we knew where you are located. This is a world wide forum.
Jim

bwallace23350 · December 07, 2016, 10:04:08 AM

What is the difference between old and new world?

Michael Bush · December 07, 2016, 10:47:55 AM

To get "old world carniolans" you would have to go to the "old world". Carniolans were mixed in with the general population. Sue Cobey went to a lot of effort to track down carniolan like bees and breed for carniolan traits to make the "new world carniolans". The title was meant to convey that they are not the same anymore since living in the US and mixing with the Italians, but she was trying to get back the traits that were seen as special to carniolans and beneficial for beekeepers.

little john · December 07, 2016, 11:40:07 AM

I recently imported two Carnie queens: one came from Hungary - which is ok, but not brilliant.

The second came from Slovenia - the ancestral home of the Carniolan Bee, and a country where the breeding remains tightly regulated - and is without doubt the best purchase I've ever made.

There are quite a few registered breeders in Slovenia who export, and who supply the relevant health certificates etc - a quick Google will turn up several. Dunno what's involved with importation into the States though ... (assuming that's where you live. If you're in Europe - no problems)
LJ

bwallace23350 · December 09, 2016, 12:13:03 AM

So what are the differences between old world and new world carnies?

BeeMaster2 · December 09, 2016, 12:50:37 PM

Wallace,
With bees, there are major differences between actual sister Italian queens. A lot has to do with how well they were bread and how much diversity is in the genes they receive from the males they mated with.
Jim

Michael Bush · December 09, 2016, 02:08:57 PM

If they came from Slovenia, they would be "old world" carniolans. If they came from California, they would be "new world" carniolans. It is a trademarked name, I think, but as I said, there are no pure carniolans here in North America. There are only the ones that Sue Coby has tried to sort out from the mutts we have here...

Cuttingedge · December 11, 2016, 11:56:38 PM

Quote from: little john on December 07, 2016, 11:40:07 AM
I recently imported two Carnie queens: one came from Hungary - which is ok, but not brilliant.

The second came from Slovenia - the ancestral home of the Carniolan Bee, and a country where the breeding remains tightly regulated - and is without doubt the best purchase I've ever made.

There are quite a few registered breeders in Slovenia who export, and who supply the relevant health certificates etc - a quick Google will turn up several. Dunno what's involved with importation into the States though ... (assuming that's where you live. If you're in Europe - no problems)
LJ

Would you mind sharing the breeder from Slovenia's info?

little john · December 12, 2016, 12:50:08 PM

The guy I bought from flatly refuses to sell outside of the EU - says it's against Slovenian law - despite other Slovenian breeders doing so. As you guys say, go figure ...

You might want to checkout:
http://apis-mellifera-carnica.eu and http://www.queen-carnica.com
It's not clear from their websites whether they export to the US or not, but it might be worth enquiring.

http://www.carnicaqueens.com do export to the US, but although based somewhere within the EU, it's not a Slovenian operation.

In contrast, http://en.cebelarstvo-dremelj.si are based in Slovenia, and have even posted a location map on their site. As they have exported to Japan in the past, the US shouldn't present any problems (assuming that there are no hiccups Stateside). Ivan Dremelj has a reputation as one of the finest breeders.

No connection with Yours Truly, etc.
LJ

Michael Bush · December 13, 2016, 09:46:02 AM

It is illegal to import bees from anywhere off the continent into the US.

little john · December 13, 2016, 10:05:31 AM

Quote from: Michael Bush on December 13, 2016, 09:46:02 AM
It is illegal to import bees from anywhere off the continent into the US.

Maybe you could write and tell this bloke ? As in http://www.carnicaqueens.com/shipping.html he clearly states that he delivers to the USA and Canada. Of course, whether he has done successfully or not is an entirely different matter.
LJ

Michael Bush · December 14, 2016, 09:01:01 AM

He can advertise whatever he wants, that doesn't make it legal. Our top scientists filed a lot of paperwork to get permission to bring in frozen sperm and I think they got some limited special permission based on the need for more genetic diversity here. But no bees have come in directly, legally. I think some people did some convoluted things to get some genetics in through Australia by having queens shipped there that were kept in quarantine, sperm extracted from the drones, the original bees killed, the newly mated queens shipped to Canada and a lot of legal paperwork to get them to the US. There has been very little new genetics, at least legally, since the early 1900s.

paus · December 14, 2016, 09:46:52 AM

Michael in our bee club meeting we were told of a new parasite that came from Australia. It is a beetle a little larger than the SHB. Does someone have more info than I have?

BeeMaster2 · December 14, 2016, 11:59:05 AM

Quote from: paus on December 14, 2016, 09:46:52 AM
Michael in our bee club meeting we were told of a new parasite that came from Australia. It is a beetle a little larger than the SHB. Does someone have more info than I have?

I posted this a while back about this new pest:
http://www.beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=49464.msg430732#msg430732

Dallasbeek · December 14, 2016, 01:39:44 PM

Quote from: Michael Bush on December 14, 2016, 09:01:01 AM
He can advertise whatever he wants, that doesn't make it legal. Our top scientists filed a lot of paperwork to get permission to bring in frozen sperm and I think they got some limited special permission based on the need for more genetic diversity here. But no bees have come in directly, legally. I think some people did some convoluted things to get some genetics in through Australia by having queens shipped there that were kept in quarantine, sperm extracted from the drones, the original bees killed, the newly mated queens shipped to Canada and a lot of legal paperwork to get them to the US. There has been very little new genetics, at least legally, since the early 1900s.

I hesitate to question your word on this, Michael, but a discussion of races of honeybees I found says the USDA introduced the Russian race of bees about the year 2000. It also says the USDA is responsible for bringing in the Africanized bee. I found this at
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesraces.htm

Could you clarify, please.

Michael Bush · December 14, 2016, 02:49:07 PM

>a discussion of races of honeybees I found says the USDA introduced the Russian race of bees about the year 2000

Yes. They got special permission to do so (they ARE the government) and again I think they only brought in frozen semen. This was crossed and recrossed until the results were fairly pure primorsky.

>It also says the USDA is responsible for bringing in the Africanized bee.

Which they got from Dr. Kerr in Brazil in the form of semen from what they believed were adansonii but turned out to be scutellata and which they have been pretending never happened for the last 30 years or so... instead blaming the migration from Brazil...

Cedar Hill · December 25, 2016, 12:34:34 PM

To answer the original question "Difference between the Old World Carniolan and the "New World Carniolan". IMHO the differences are "huge". During the early 'sixties started my pollination business with what was then the Carniolan bee -Old World Carniolan. It wasn't very popular because they swarmed very often in one season so it was difficult making a decent honey crop BUT if you wanted to populate a load of new hives for a pollination business, it was an excellent bee to start with successfully. Built up to 350 hives in no time. Sue Cobey later started work on getting rid of its swarming tendency and she succeeded very well. So much so that the "New World Carniolan" was trademarked, although there are some breeders who are selling just Carniolans, they are not the true "New World Carniolan" which is trademarked and sold by its breeders. The "New World Carniolan" does not swarm very much at all in comparison to what it did in the 1960's and it's a bee that has seen constant yearly improvements it seems. In general it was quite an accomplishment. OMTCW