building / wiring foundationless frames

[djgriggs]

Okay , i know that there is a lot of information out there on this subject and even videos.. I some frames I have been working on for foundationless. I am using fishing line to wire the frame I am using pattern =X  " the = and x are combined see attachment.  I have tried this with two different fishing lines , regular 20 lb line and spiderwire fishing line. I am trying to attach the line with staples . so far the line keeps coming off. " slides right out of the staple once a pull on it. I am not for sure what I am doing wrong /  maybe using a staple . If anyone has any ideas / thoughts please tell me what I am doing in correctly.

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[little john]

To hold nylon mono-filament fishing-line securely, wrap it 4-6 times around a drawing-pin/ thumb-tack that has been pressed halfway into the wood of a side bar.  Whilst holding modest tension on the free end, press the tack firmly home.  What I then used to do as a 'belt and braces' measure was to squeeze the drawing-pin hard into the wood with a pair of plumber's grips.  If you leave much of an impression in the soft wood, then you've squeezed too hard !  Then snip off the excess line.

I found bees could get their 'teeth' around 20 lb line and chew it until it parted.  I found 40-60 lb sea-fishing line survived the bees ok ... but it didn't survive a mouse. LOL
LJ

[djgriggs]

okay, got actual nails today for wiring the frames , works .. I now have a test frame complete. however I am wanting to know , how tight I am suppose to have the line. also i am still going off of the diagram above. I also have some spiderwire laying around I will try that this weekend .

[Robo]

My experience has not been good with fishing line.

1) The bees are much more hesitant to build comb around it compared to metal wire
2) It doesn't hold up no where as well as metal wire (not sure if the bees chew it or I had it too tight).  Many times I'd walk into the apiary to find it hanging out the entrance.

I totally agree that some type of comb support is needed for foundationless, but I have found 1 metal cross wire is sufficient and works best for me.

[little john]

okay, got actual nails today for wiring the frames , works .. I now have a test frame complete. however I am wanting to know , how tight I am suppose to have the line. also i am still going off of the diagram above. I also have some spiderwire laying around I will try that this weekend .

Well - when running foundationless I used to have it 'tight' (as opposed to sloppy) - but not 'banjo tight' - just enough that it made a 'thuk' sound when I plucked it.  I guess the same when supporting foundation ?

I very much agree with Robo - the bees don't really 'like' nylon fishing line - they tolerate it, whenever they have little choice, but they'll quickly build alongside it given half a chance.  That's why I changed to using bamboo skewers - a tad more hassle to make, certainly less pretty, but far more predictable.  Still looking for the perfect solution to this one ...

BTW - have you ever considered 'bobby pins' (whatever they are ...) - the FatBeeMan made a YouTube video about using these - they seem to work ok.
LJ

[Acebird]

They are single wire hair pins John bent in a long U.

[little john]

Thanks Brian - live 'n' learn ... !    - LJ

[tjc1]

I use 60 lb monifilament and haven't seen any problems - never seen the bees chew it and they build on it fine - perhaps because they have no other choice! I just tie a triple knot in one end so it can't pull through the hole in the frame, then go back and forth (no criss-cross - that seems unnecessary to me) as tight as I can get it (as it always seems to loosen/stretch in the process), then tie it off to itself on the outside edge of the frame.

[cao]

I would agree with Robo.  I've had bees stop drawing around the nylon even with foundation.  I just stopped using support wires.  Any frame that I pull that isn't attached to the sides and/or bottom is treated very gently(not flipped over) regardless of any wires it may or may not have in it.

[djgriggs]

I would agree with Robo.  I've had bees stop drawing around the nylon even with foundation.  I just stopped using support wires.  Any frame that I pull that isn't attached to the sides and/or bottom is treated very gently(not flipped over) regardless of any wires it may or may not have in it.

Has anyone used Spider Wire fishing line. It appears to me that it is a little thinner and is not nylon ? Thoughts on this ?

[Oldbeavo]

If we want them to build foundation for comb honey then we put a thin piece of wood across the center of a full depth frame, about 3/8x3/8 pine, hot wax painted on the inner surfaces and away they go.
Quick, easy and permanent.

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Beavo, is the 3/8 rod horizontal in the frame, you texted (across) so that is what I interpreted.  Just wanted to be sure the rod is not vertical.
blessings .

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Mr. Griggs, I hope you give us an update when you receive your bees.  I lot of us are glad for you, look at all the replys,,, so keep us posted on your bees,,,, when you receive them.
Blessings

[djgriggs]

I have learned something today, I got home from work and and tried 2 things.

1. took foundationless frame used regular 20lb fishing line.
          ... I could not get this very tight, plus still stretched when pulled..

2. took foundationless frame used 20lb spider wire fishing line..
         ... I could get this tight, did not seem to stretch, however when I pulled on the line , it is such a thin fine line that it cut right through the frame..
             Need to use the eyelets if using this line..

Questions, just how tight does this need to be also does foundationless frames really need wire of any kind for support I mean it is foundationless.. I mean is this an issue always or only if you flip flop the frames once they have comb......


At this time I was thinking that I liked the sting until it was so tight that it sliced through the frame :),, Eyelets ???? and go with spiderwire or will it be to thin....

is stretching a bad thing and how much stretching is a bad thing ?

[moebees]

I have learned something today, I got home from work and and tried 2 things.



Questions, just how tight does this need to be also does foundationless frames really need wire of any kind for support I mean it is foundationless.. I mean is this an issue always or only if you flip flop the frames once they have comb......

I don't use anything. 

[little john]

Questions, just how tight does this need to be also does foundationless frames really need wire of any kind for support I mean it is foundationless.. I mean is this an issue always or only if you flip flop the frames once they have comb......

Needing eyelets was one reason I've never considered using wire - yet more stuff to buy - along with requiring some means of tensioning it.

moebees is quite right - with foundationless you don't really need anything.  But - you do then need to handle the combs with absolute care - just as if they were Top Bar combs.  Once the bees have attached a comb to the side bars, it's a lot safer - and once it's turned deep brown (after a year or two) it's as safe to handle as a comb built on foundation.

So - the 'delicate' time is when you have (say) five or six inches of comb hanging down from a starter strip - sometimes with only a 'knife-blade' contact to that starter-strip, and with no support from the sides.  At that time the comb can even wave about in a gentle breeze, and it doesn't take a whole lot for it to just flop over to one side and break off.  That's the time when some form of comb support is handy.
One of the reasons I like vertical support is that it's in place right from the start, whereas with horizontal support the comb is unsupported until it reaches the first wire or line.

When using fishing line, the idea is not to hold the comb rigidly, but only to prevent it from 'flopping over' - so if (until the side adhesions are made) the comb flexes a few millimetres or so to one side, it really doesn't matter - no damage of significance will occur.  Even if the line was pulled taut, but with no significant tension on it - that would still do the job ok.

In general terms, bees are more enthusiastic to build comb wherever they find the presence of wax, and so it might be worth running a block of wax along the fishing line once it's been installed - although I've never actually done this. (Too lazy).
LJ

[cao]

Questions, just how tight does this need to be also does foundationless frames really need wire of any kind for support I mean it is foundationless.. I mean is this an issue always or only if you flip flop the frames once they have comb......

It doesn't have to be tight enough that you can play a tune on it.  IMO it only needs to be tight enough so there isn't any slop in it.  As stated earlier, the only time that there is an issue with a foundationless frame is when it ie new and the bees haven't attached it to the sides and/or bottom.  Once It is atached to the bottom, it can be treated like any other drawn frame.

[Oldbeavo]

Hi Van
The bar runs horizontal across the frame.
This allows us to cut out capped honey for sale at markets. We have uncapped and extracted these frames, by mistake as they are more valuable as comb honey.
We make the bees build it all rather than use foundation as we don't know the origin of the foundation and I don't expect people to chew on something I can't vouch for.
To tension wire put the frame in holder so you can push the side bars in a bit, small thread and handle, put the wire in reasonably tight then when you release the pressure on the side bars the wires become tighter.
Need to use eyelets.

[Acebird]

IMO it only needs to be tight enough so there isn't any slop in it.

Yes, you actually could have a catenary in the strand if you tied the center off to the bottom bar with another wire.  This would make it into a very shallow "Y".

[djgriggs]

Thanks for all the advice on this , but if I must be honest, and I usually am to a fault. I still do not know which way to go on this .. I want to go with foundationless but still not clear if the horizontal fishing line / wire is absolutely needed. It sounds like it is more optional than anything , and that if you do not have the horizontal support you must , must must be extremely careful when handling the frame with comb. I understand having the line support there be it " = , or X + = ".

If I understand correctly on the use of the fishing line , it is okay if it stretches  a little because it is there for support and it is okay as long as it does not sag. Maybe I

am thinking to much into this . i was thinking that as the comb is built and it starts being built downward that it would end up putting pressure on the fishing line and then start to stretch the line, but now that I think about it presuming the bees do not bite through it they would build the comb around the line allowing the line a more supporting role instead of pushing the line downward.. Does this sound correct or make sense. .

Keep in in mind that I have two hives, one was planned to use foundation and one was not.

As a new beekeeper do I want to chance " no horizontal support for the foundationless " I know that mistakes will happen and I could lower the chances by choosing to be very very careful.

Current Options :

1. Continue to use the 20lb fishing line as tight as possible without eyelets
2. buy eyelets to use with line support original fishingline or spiderwire.
3 Do not use any Horizontal supporting wires and be extremely careful.

I do not want to spend more money if I do not have to so I am going to say that option 2 is out..

I do appreciate everyones thoughts and input here.. I do not want anyone to think otherwise I am just stubborn at times and try to make sure I have the complete picture.