Interesting and thoughtful article on moving to treatment free beekeeping

[Acebird]

Not talking about all the beautiful beneficial enzymes in Honey, the pollens, just the sugars appear to be the same and in same percentages.

I don't think there is an argument that bees cannot survive on syrup.  Commercial operators do this on a regular basis.  But those same commercial operators will insist bees cannot survive without treatments yet in the wild they do.  And for the most part there isn't anyone feeding feral bees gallons of syrup.
The article is about moving to treatment free beekeeping and that always makes me laugh.  The wish that you could somehow treat some of your bees and not all of them is really a man made dream.  The only way to be treatment free is to do it the way nature does it.  If you don't believe that then stop dreaming and just treat.

[little john]

This is getting a bit more complex than I had anticipated. I apologize for the buzz words.  Lil John, you are good with chemistry Sir,  am I making myself clear?  The diff???? Between Honey and HFCS??? Blessings

Hi Van - as previously mentioned, I know squat about HFCS, mainly because it's a man-made substance, and hasn't appeared on my radar (until now).  So - I'm learning as I Google ...

There's a whole can of worms opening up here - I had assumed (always dangerous) that High Fructose Corn Syrup would be high in fructose (hence it's name) - but it's not - that label was created solely to distinguish it from bog-standard Corn Syrup.  The percentages of glucose & fructose are the same as in sucrose.  Not high levels of fructose at all.

There's some good chat about HFCS at: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/88/6/1716S/4617107  and https://academic.oup.com/advances/article/4/2/236/4591632 as well as plenty of other sites - but - they all appear to be focused upon issues related to human nutrition.

One comment I'd make which may be more directly helpful, is that there's really no such animal as 'a molecule of honey', as honey is a mixture - a blend of various sugars, and a whole lot more besides.  There's quite a good write-up about the chemical composition of honey at: http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/webprojects2001/loveridge/index-page3.html

Sorry for just giving links in this post - the weather has broken at last, and I'm like a mad thing right now around the site, as there's so much to do outdoors, which has been thus far prevented by lousy weather.  Just firing-up the computer, each time I come in for a break.
'best
LJ

[moebees]

Not talking about all the beautiful beneficial enzymes in Honey, the pollens, just the sugars appear to be the same and in same percentages.

The article is about moving to treatment free beekeeping and that always makes me laugh.  The wish that you could somehow treat some of your bees and not all of them is really a man made dream.  The only way to be treatment free is to do it the way nature does it.  If you don't believe that then stop dreaming and just treat.

This.

[eltalia]

https://   static1.squarespace.com/static/56818659c21b86470317d96e/t/5900c8b5bf629a68d138598f/1493223607505/TreatmentFree_Oct2016.pdf

0keeee guys 'n gals, having now read the article I do comment thusly
from my Chair of Academia which shalt excite the impressionable
whilst reviling those irrepressible book burners, yet tick boxes with
the astute in scoring 'value".

Let us begin here;

The author of the essay - herein after described with "GOIL"
(given obvious installed liabilitys) doth use my name(Bill)
in vain, for;
I do not know the lady.
I do do treatment free but have no "mite" to treat or not treat.
IF I ever saved money beekeeping I would not be spending it on my
"favourite daughter" nor any other daughter.
First such would be rampant discrimination punishable in old age, and
second I would definitely use spare cash to expand my cellar stock.
0r if a small amount, incur further damage on my liver, immediately.


GOIL cites a 'cure' for chalkbroad yet doesn't remove from the apiary
what GOIL assumes is the problem;
o He removes the queen from colony 5, and put her in a nuc as a spare/emergency,

A dud queen is a dud queen, euthansia is the only route out of that.

GOIL then extends this 'cure' into a magical reversal of CB status in very quick time
in respect of brood cycles and climate progression;
o He orders a hygienic queen from a local breeder to put in colony 5.
o The chalk brood clears up.

That CB could not have possibly cleared up ttom other influences now hey... oH no,
no way, our new queen started pumping out hygenjc bees the minute her arse hit the
cells. Believe that and I have a bridge in Sydney Australia to sell.


GOIL cites requeening in a time of known mite buildup and diminishing forage.
o Once the treatment is finished, Bill orders 3 queens for fall requeening of colonies 2 ? 4.

So where does the bee stocks for brood care in the breakout of Winter come from?
Answer is they do not eventuate so whatever brood the bees raise from this late new queen
- who may not even lay an egg until a fortnight after install - creates a lack of sufficient numbers
in Winter break which then induces panic brood raising in yet another time of dearth resulting
in colony collapse in the first weeks of Spring!

Summary;
What we have here in GOIL is classic clash of mantra within a culture.
A twist if you like on a Philosophy which erodes the parent teaching
and so fuels an 'opposing' Philosophy to treat the former with scorn/derision.
As for the cuddly fuddly emotions expressed I am of the view that such antics
- particularly when signed off Professionly - is exactly as LJ has put.
Plus such forces used in a piece are designed to have those of us (b'keeps)
who do not follow the TF mantra to be seen as "bad guys" or "wasters" at best.
I truly think that is a sad inditement on GOIL in judging humanity thusly.

... here endth the lesson.


The short version.. the bit you will read first?
Nope, it don't stack up, it is insulting, and dare I say harmfull to bees as
a theory very few who would take on the extra workload would sustain.

Bill - the Real Bill ;-)))))

[Bamboo]

Hear hear Bill, well summarised.
The "language" she uses in her treatise is hardly that of an academic but we don't really know what audience she has written this for, it could just be a piece on her blog or such like.
I respect her right to her opinion even if I don't agree with it.
I agree with LJ where he says that using Phd at the heading of an article like this can almost be dishonest. Some people are insecure in who they are so need to prove that they are "worth" something so put the alphabet after their name.
Reminds me of a time in a former incarnation when a good friend of mine who was very successful had his office wall plastered with all his awards, certificates, etc. One day his son came into the office and said " Dad, who are you trying to impress?" Next day they all came down! Awards and certificates don't validate who you are what you do does.

[eltalia]

"Awards and certificates don't validate who you are what you do does."

bingo!!
... got a raft of them myself an' that, none under glass tho' some
are well cared for. I take more from the getting of than the having,
if you follow me ;-)
And you know what?
Unless you remain active in a field (update). in the new way they all
mean diddly squat. Hard lesson in Life but it is what it is, and why I
don't even bother with a reliable phone connection :-))

Bill

[Van, Arkansas, USA]

Bamboo, well stated, very well stated, I could not agree more.

Eltalia, what a review, man oh man at the details,,,,,,when you read,,,,, you read every word and subsequent thought.  Well appreciated.

Lil John, I luv the metaphor (girly), halarious, but accurate to say the least.
Blessings

[sc-bee]

Wow, GUYS... "girly"?  "sweetheart"? Yikes - are y'all married? I must be of roughly the same generation as you (I'm 63), and as we should know by now, that's no excuse - my PhD wife would box your ears - in very ungirly-like fashion...! :)

I don't see much discussion on the merits of her propositions here - but lots of knocking of her credentials and 'tone' - hmm, dare I say that comes off as 'guyish'? 

When I said 'girly' - I didn't actually mean to be disparaging - it's simply that when I read selected sections of that article - it came across as being very 'pink and fluffy' and I knew immediately (without looking) that it was written by a girl.  Yes - a girl. Not a mature woman with substantial experience of life, but a girl.

'Sweetheart' WAS patronising, I agree - it was intended to be - because my words were being addressed to someone who apparently has scant experience of life outside of a university campus.  I have often addressed post-doctoral students (both male and female) in that way whenever I encountered inflated egos. 

To include one's academic qualifications when addressing an issue in an unrelated field is highly misleading and borderline dishonest - for by doing this you are presenting your own views as being those of someone with expertise within the subject area.  At least that is highly likely to be the assumption that many would automatically draw.

If I held a Ph.D. in Victorian Architecture, Sub-Atomic Physics or Ancient Greek Literature - should my own beekeeping opinions be awarded merit because of having studied within one of these subject areas ?  Certainly not.  So is Environmental Health really any different ?

I too, wish her every success in the future, as she learns more about the honey bee - but I would suggest that in the meanwhile she exercises due caution when promoting her own beekeeping agenda.
LJ

Yep we need more GIRLS in beekeeping... youth is the future of the craft.  And bet she is certainly easier on the eyes than you or I. That don't add to her credentials but it on't hurt the PR 

As  far as her academic credentials, as weak as many seem they are, that is on me.... I searched them out and posted them. Well I see she has been keeping bees with family since a kid so hopefully better that the wet behind the ear kid with papers in her hand

[Acebird]

"Awards and certificates don't validate who you are what you do does."

bingo!!

If only that was true.  Certificates get you on the list of possibilities.  You could be looked over if you don't have the certificates.  Once you get on the list then what you do matters.  My life is base on experience.  My experience suggest that with a sheep skin it is assumed you can do it.  Without a sheep skin you have to prove you can do it over and over again until you get enough people that know you and will vouch for you.  That happens when you are old and don't give a darn anymore.

[Acebird]

Bill - the Real Bill ;-)))))

Bill, you are ahead of schedule.  It is not Saturday or Sunday ... no body needs saving yet.
The sinners will pay tomorrow or the next day.

[sc-bee]

"Awards and certificates don't validate who you are what you do does."

bingo!!

If only that was true.  Certificates get you on the list of possibilities.  You could be looked over if you don't have the certificates.  Once you get on the list then what you do matters.  My life is base on experience.  My experience suggest that with a sheep skin it is assumed you can do it.  Without a sheep skin you have to prove you can do it over and over again until you get enough people that know you and will vouch for you.  That happens when you are old and don't give a darn anymore.

Very well said Ace... I just went thorough a work issue that dives this home.... I dare you ask the snowflake to do anything...they finally took my last GIVE a darn. Took almost 61 years but I am there in that place

[eltalia]

"Awards and certificates don't validate who you are what you do does."
bingo!!

If only that was true.  Certificates get you on the list of possibilities.  You could be looked over if
you don't have the certificates.  Once you get on the list then what you do matters.  My life is base
on experience...

It is very true... at least it is Down Under.
And getting "on the list" Brian starts with what you do - in building your Resume.
Presuming of course USA human resource recruiters are in step with the rest of
top level developed workplaces.
My account is near on 10 years old now but coming from both sides of the
recruiting desk I can tell you plainly that should your Certs/Quals not be current
within your Resume - and/or position critetia address - the whole application will
be binned, regardless.

This stuff cannot be g00gl'd Brian... to comment one has to have that experience.
The experience being *doing* the yards to corral the cutting edge upgrades.
Try and pull the wool on that one and the only result is a through muelsing* at the
post/mail office.

Yet here we are once again Brian with your literal take on mere quips of
experience/opinion posted - you leading the topic off into the ether.
So frequent from your desk I do wonder, sometimes :wry grin:
Were I to worry *all* the time and so rush to your salvation my actions could be
seen as akin to the guy following the horse with broom and pan.
!!
In your case tho' it would be running the old trays out of tbe birdcage to insert
bleached and retarred replacements. :chuckles:

Bill

--
*mulesing*
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulesing

[sc-bee]

And all of this bashing came from the sharing of one blog type article... Geezzzeee... I have been here a long time... seems the spirit of this forum has made a turn. But then again it could be me as I only check in from time to time. Anywayyyyy........

[eltalia]

"But then again it could be me as I only check in from time to time. "

C Ya.. happy trails, you an' John both.

[Acebird]

Presuming of course USA human resource recruiters are in step with the rest of
top level developed workplaces.

The procedures differ immensely by the size of the company in USA.  Corporate America starts off with a job description and a list of qualifications,  mostly academic with some experience.  Experience only measured by time.  This is done to trim down a list of 400 applicants to 20 or less.  The opposite of corporate America is small business.  Small business survives against the competition of corporate america by being better at what they do.  Now the pendulum swings to predominately experience and experience that can be vouched for not just time.  A reference can be worth far more than anything written on paper or any academic accomplishment.  Small businesses are more inclined to take a chance on a candidate then corporate America.  But you will have a short period of time to prove yourself and it must be done each and every time you switch jobs.

I don't know what the practices are for the down under but to lump all of america into one business practice would be like saying we are all white.

[sc-bee]

"But then again it could be me as I only check in from time to time. "

C Ya.. happy trails, you an' John both.

I knew I could count on you.... I been here for years and I am the consistent one in the equation over the years and YOU???? Well anyway......

You would have no idea of the tone of the page over the years.... you did not even exist

[eltalia]

"But then again it could be me as I only check in from time to time. "

C Ya.. happy trails, you an' John both.

I knew I could count on you.... I been here for years and I am the consistent one in the
equation over the years and YOU???? Well anyway......

You would have no idea of the tone of the page over the years.... you did not even exist

.

I am not reporting your post/slur, not my style.
Men are Men where I come from. You (?) obviously sing trom another
song sheet, given the record.

Buuut you are leaving,  again... consistently.
So some Life advice?
Accept what you do not understand, refuse to understand, to embrace
some education. There is at least one pathway to avoid histronics which
would reduce your sunset years.

FTR.. I do not "respect" your opinion on anything as the root of it all is
warped... buuut I am an easy going type so I am quite happy to tolerate
your views as long as they are clearly not shared by a wider audience in
allowing you to get in my face muttering slieghts and negatives.

You choose to sit on a long subscription (only)... go for it.
Means nought to me or others of objective thought. Brother :-/

[sc-bee]

"But then again it could be me as I only check in from time to time. "

C Ya.. happy trails, you an' John both.

I knew I could count on you.... I been here for years and I am the consistent one in the
equation over the years and YOU???? Well anyway......

You would have no idea of the tone of the page over the years.... you did not even exist

.

I am not reporting your post/slur, not my style.
Men are Men where I come from. You (?) obviously sing trom another
song sheet, given the record.

Buuut you are leaving,  again... consistently.
So some Life advice?
Accept what you do not understand, refuse to understand, to embrace
some education. There is at least one pathway to avoid histronics which
would reduce your sunset years.

FTR.. I do not "respect" your opinion on anything as the root of it all is
warped... buuut I am an easy going type so I am quite happy to tolerate
your views as long as they are clearly not shared by a wider audience in
allowing you to get in my face muttering slieghts and negatives.

You choose to sit on a long subscription (only)... go for it.
Means nought to me or others of objective thought. Brother :-/

Report for what LOL... Root of it warped LOL  I really never leave just check in and out.... you are so full of YOURSELF... If others tolerate you so be it. No issue to me and care less of what you think of me or my opinions or post or warped roots. WHY ARE YOU LOOKING AT MY ROOTS ANYWAY   I am past that point of my life... so go strap on your smokers and try to make yourself feel big 

Oh yea...you love to speak for others???
"You choose to sit on a long subscription (only)... go for it. Means nought to me or others of objective thought. Brother :-/" Please others tell me of my WARPED ROOTS 

I am not here to cause the forum issues.. so I am moving on to another post... done with YA...

As far as the original post... it was just an article and some choose, to make themselves feel huge and empowered in the arm chair bee forum world, to dissect it to the point of criticizing the article as if she were explaining what should be done about treating chalkboard in what was meant to be a simple illustration.... REALLY Geeze... HOW SAD :(

[Bamboo]

Geez SC
Chill  man! Maybe you should move on from John and read Mathew 22:39.

[Ben Framed]

@ eltalia.   Well I look up and there you are again "Liberty", Right in the middle of another controversy, right in the middle of another "mess". I have only been posting here for what, two weeks and it seems you are constantly, tripping Ransom Stardard and spilling someone's steak.  This time you spilt mine Liberty, Though I grew up with men who the character Tom imitated, I'm not going to tell you to pick it up Liberty, I am going to try and reason with you in Bamboo's way, your friend? Now  I want to be serious with you for just a bit so please bare with me.  You seem to be a well read man, a well learned man. So there won't or shouldn't be any confusion here, I am reaching out the right hand of Christian fellowship to you Bill .  First of all, with all your education do you know that the Bible, and I prefer The King James Version, may be the longest running history book that has ever been written? bring a learned manI am thinking that you probably have read it.  Did you know that the linage of Jesus can be traced back from generation to generation to adam? Can you find fault with Phillip Hall? I will answer that for you , yes sir you can. As a matter of fact, you can find fault with every person on this forum because we all fall short of The Glory of God. The God who this great history book was written. Man to man generation to generation. There is only one that I don't believe that you can fault with in this great book of history and that is Jesus. You see Bill, Bamboo is right about his buddy Mathew. But so is sc-bee's about his friend John. I appeal to you, you being a learned man and a well read man, that not only will you see the Bible for its historical value, but be enlightened in a spiritual way and find a peace that goes beyond all understanding from this book. The book that  your fore fathers, my forefathers brought with them to  Australia and America from England. Will you read Mathew, Mark, Luke and John and see what these friends of Jesus had to say about him? Thank you for you time  Bill , I would like to be your friend not a foe. God Bless You....  Sincerely, Phillip Hall