What Is the Truth Concerning Neonicotinoids ?

[Ben Framed]

If you can get podcasts, check this out. http://traffic.libsyn.com/beekeepingtodaypodcast/Tom_Theobald_-_Neonicotinoids.mp3?dest-id=715151

@ yes2matt
I don't have podcast. Can you type in the heading and maybe I can pull it up on YouTube if it's avaible. Thank you Matt
Phillip Hall

I found a YouTube video that (may) be the subject. Is the Narrator Dan Rather?

[SiWolKe]

The ban and the investigations have arisen because the chemicals were used carelessly.
Bees picked up neonics through water, which contained the treated corn and cereal grains. The contamination was because the seeds were not covered with earth.
thereafter almost all bee colonies died in one area.

The main problem with chemical application in agriculture is the application, which usually does not comply with the regulations. It is the mixtures, too high dosages, the use of wrong or outdated technology, or used at the wrong time, when insects fly. Most farmers are not educated enough about that.
Add to that the problem of groundwater pollution and guttation water taken by the insects.

But it is good that the research is under pressure, good for both sides.

Only 2 of the Neonics were banned, and only until the research was completed.
There are plenty of other neonics on the market.

Another problem is the private or public gardens that are allowed to use these chemicals. Meanwhile, there is more sprayed done than in some agriculture (EU).

[Ben Framed]

The ban and the investigations have arisen because the chemicals were used carelessly.
Bees picked up neonics through water, which contained the treated corn and cereal grains. The contamination was because the seeds were not covered with earth.
thereafter almost all bee colonies died in one area.

The main problem with chemical application in agriculture is the application, which usually does not comply with the regulations. It is the mixtures, too high dosages, the use of wrong or outdated technology, or used at the wrong time, when insects fly. Most farmers are not educated enough about that.
Add to that the problem of groundwater pollution and guttation water taken by the insects.

But it is good that the research is under pressure, good for both sides.

Only 2 of the Neonics were banned, and only until the research was completed.
There are plenty of other neonics on the market.

Another problem is the private or public gardens that are allowed to use these chemicals. Meanwhile, there is more sprayed done than in some agriculture (EU).

So if the products are used and applied properly, their is no reason to be concerned, they are perfectly safe ?
Phillip

[Hops Brewster]

I suppose that's what the studies are trying to determine, among other things.

[Ben Framed]

I suppose that's what the studies are trying to determine, among other things.

I just hope it's true

[SiWolKe]

Agriculture will always use chemistry, it is an illusion to believe that there will be no more. I believe even more that the bee treatments stop sometime.
But maybe the enthusiasm for new chemistry will only subside if research on the dangers is required.

[Ben Framed]

Agriculture will always use chemistry, it is an illusion to believe that there will be no more. I believe even more that the bee treatments stop sometime.
But maybe the enthusiasm for new chemistry will only subside if research on the dangers is required.

Research must be done for the good of all, but my question is, are these now proven safe to use if used by direction?  If so fantastic.

[SiWolKe]

Research must be done for the good of all, but my question is, are these now proven safe to use if used by direction?  If so fantastic.

Proven safe? Is anything done against nature proven safe? I don?t believe you can say that. We will see in 50 or more years and research will change sides then, as always, if so.
But it?s better to direct the use. Lower costs for the farmers, more safety to the environement. Little improvement is better than no improvement at all.

[Acebird]

Lower costs for the farmers,

I am not convinced of this.  I think the farmer is hog tied once he becomes beholding to the chemical companies.  It benefits agriculture.  Large corporation as opposed to a farmers.

[Ben Framed]

Research must be done for the good of all, but my question is, are these now proven safe to use if used by direction?  If so fantastic.

Proven safe? Is anything done against nature proven safe? I don?t believe you can say that. We will see in 50 or more years and research will change sides then, as always, if so.
But it?s better to direct the use. Lower costs for the farmers, more safety to the environement. Little improvement is better than no improvement at all.

I'm with Ace on this one. Are we expected to be guinea pigs on a 50 year experiment? We the people worldwide? These products are  being used worldwide!  We have no clue that it will be safe for the environment,  it could have the total opposite effect? Possiably destroying our entire ecosystem after 50 years of worldwide use. On the other hand, I appreciate your optimism. I would like to share the same optimism but at this time I must be more reserved. So again I ask What Is the Truth Concerning Neonicotinoids ? Hopefully good things....

[SiWolKe]

Agriculture will change only if consumer behavior changes.

And if there are no food surpluses that are disposed of to keep prices.

A starving world that needs more food production? No, we break the poor parts of the worlds markets and expropriate them.

So it's up to us and how we deal with the farmers, whether we respect their work, spend more on sustainable food, downshift elsewhere, or whether we just want to shop cheaply so we can accumulate even more superfluous items with the spare money.

We let the agrar companies make us their guinea pigs for sure. You can stop this by buying organic.

It?s like the chicken and the egg...which one was first?

[Ben Framed]

Agriculture will change only if consumer behavior changes.

And if there are no food surpluses that are disposed of to keep prices.

A starving world that needs more food production? No, we break the poor parts of the worlds markets and expropriate them.

So it's up to us and how we deal with the farmers, whether we respect their work, spend more on sustainable food, downshift elsewhere, or whether we just want to shop cheaply so we can accumulate even more superfluous items with the spare money.

We let the agrar companies make us their guinea pigs for sure. You can stop this by buying organic.

It?s like the chicken and the egg...which one was first?

I was driving through the Mississippi Delta just last week. I drove for hours. Farmland as far as the eye can see.  I don't know how many miles wide or how many miles deep it runs. I was thinking, how in the world do they pump enough oil and refine enough diesel fuel to prepare all this farmland and reap the crops. It was once said, many years ago, that there was enough farm land in the Mississippi Delta alone to to feed the entire world.  We were taught this in schools. Mississippi is only one of many farm states in America. 

[CoolBees]

Agriculture will change only if consumer behavior changes.

And if there are no food surpluses that are disposed of to keep prices.

A starving world that needs more food production? No, we break the poor parts of the worlds markets and expropriate them.

So it's up to us and how we deal with the farmers, whether we respect their work, spend more on sustainable food, downshift elsewhere, or whether we just want to shop cheaply so we can accumulate even more superfluous items with the spare money.

We let the agrar companies make us their guinea pigs for sure. You can stop this by buying organic.

It?s like the chicken and the egg...which one was first?

Theres a lot of truth in what you say. - the consumer must drive the change ...

In our home, 1st we got the land (16 yrs ago). Then we saved for 8 yrs to get the well. Then the tractor with implements.

The I planted orchards, installed 5000+ linear ft of drip irrigation lines. Then the overhead sprinklers for vegetable  gardens.

As the orchards matured without much fruit, I got the bees. That solved that problem.

Now we sell organic eggs, apples, cherries, pears, plums, pomegranates, (and many more fruit), avocado's, honey, etc. This yr I planted the citrus orchard. ... but most importantly, we talk with everyone who buys.

We tell them "why" it's better to buy from people like us - for their health, for the future.

Educating people is the key to changing the future. ... and people love it. They want to learn, and they appreciate what they are getting.

... but it's a lot of work. It can't be done from a rocking chair.

[Ben Framed]

CoolBees, I am glad that you posted the prior post describing your family farm. That is the way things use to be here before my time as I have heard from my older relatives.. It's good to know that your way of life still exists and works here in America. Thank you for your hard work and dedication to your family and farm. So refreshing to hear. The cattle industry has changed also. What use to be done on horse back and wirh dogs, is now done in more modern ways. Progress? I'm not so sure... My mothers family were farmers, My daddy's family were cattlemen. I'm getting off track and away from the subject so I will back off. Again I enjoied reading your post.
Thanks,
Phillip

[CoolBees]

Thank you kindly Phillip. I've enjoyed your many contributions here as well.

I live and work in the Silicon Valley, but my goal was to re-create the old ways, so as to pass them down to my children as they grew (and expose their friends also). I was raised in the "old ways" - small farms, my grandfather's cows would each answer to their name individually when he called, etc.

Young people don't need to learn every detail of the "old ways" as they grow - they just need to see "what is possible" (which isn't taught by any teacher in any classroom in America anymore, that I'm aware of) - they are smart enough to fill in the blanks on their own later.

Back to SiWolKes point - the children will become the consumers of tomorrow, and can change the future ... if they have the knowledge and understanding of "what is possible". That's why I built what I did here. What I've seen though, is also a thirsting of many in the adult population for healthy alternatives as well.

It is interesting [to me] to watch the evolution in people's thoughts processes. .... the "Pendulum" always swings. We may be able to get back to healthier growing processes as this new generation comes of age, ... and rebels against the generation currently in power (as is the nature of young people) .... IF we pass along the knowledge.

Those were my thoughts.

[SiWolKe]

Thanks for the great contributions.


I gave a lecture in December, the main content of which was how to promote insects in the private garden and why beekeeping today is so heavily affected by treatments.
For this I showed a picture by beamer from a shelf in a garden shop, which sells chemicals.

The people sat there very embarrassed, many recognized their careless behaviours..and told me that afterwards they have some problems with health because of that, they never did use protection gear.

Many simply do not realize how the world has changed in 100 years. In the past,many hobbyist gardeners used plants for spraying and fertilizing, like nettle ferment, like it is still done today in an organic enterprise.

People tell me they can not afford organic food. But if in the shopping cart are mainly alcohol, sweets, chips, I do not think so.
You do not need to buy everything in organic, a part is enough.

For the environment it would be wonderful if less meat was eaten. How was it nice when the Sunday roast was special? Today you eat sausages and meat 3 times a day and you need a lot of plants for the production.
I know people who spent 1000? or more to purchase a barbecue grill but buy the cheapest meat. I do it opposite. A fire, a roast grill, a dutch oven, that?s the best. And a good piece of meat when the animal slaughtered has had a good life.

It?s just food is no status symbol like a car. But it will change. I the cities the young people are fed up with working only media. They want to get their hands dirty on gardening and long to feel a part of nature again. It?s an education process. Paleo, it?s a trend. Sustainability too.

[Skeggley]

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2018.1494889
Here is an extract from an article.

[yes2matt]

If you can get podcasts, check this out. http://traffic.libsyn.com/beekeepingtodaypodcast/Tom_Theobald_-_Neonicotinoids.mp3?dest-id=715151

@ yes2matt
I don't have podcast. Can you type in the heading and maybe I can pull it up on YouTube if it's avaible. Thank you Matt
Phillip Hall

Sorry for the delay in response. If you right-click the link, you can direct "Save link as..." or similar and download the mp3 audio to whatever device you're using. If you left-click (normal) the link it will play the audio.

It is Tom Theobold, talking with Kim Flottum.

[Acebird]

I know people who spent 1000? or more to purchase a barbecue grill but buy the cheapest meat.

Never try to make sense out a human want vs. need.

[Acebird]

The I planted orchards,

Amazing you started with fruit.  Fruit is the food item that has the highest application of pesticides and chemicals.  How do you keep it to a minimum?