Low protein bee food

[ThomasGR]

Hello,
I 've just made a batch of 100 bags of bee food ( 600-700gram ), containing sugar dust, pollen, honey, orange juice , water. About 50 kg sugar, 5 kg honey, 5 kg pollen and water. This is a low protein sugar feed. Do you think is ideal food for maintaining mating nucs all the year? Is 2-3% protein in the basic sugar block, any beneficial ?
Thanks

[Hops Brewster]

pollen is protein.  Protein is required to raise brood and particularly important to making queens and feeding them in adulthood.  I'm not sure why you want low protein feed.

IN the U.S., many beekeepers will feed pollen substitute in early spring to aid in brood buildup.  Sugar syrup is fed to colonies that are low on honey stores.  Separate feeds.

I'm not familiar with spring in Greece.  If you have lots of nectar and pollen coming into the hive right now you might not need to be feeding at all. 
 

[TheHoneyPump]

Protein;   Builds bees.
Sugar;  Fuels bees.  (Fly bees and heater bees).

The feed selected is determined by what the goals are.  A nuc is usually a hive starter and the goal being to build population (to make bees).  So, what should feed for nucs have the most proportion of?    More cheeseburgers or more coca cola?

[van from Arkansas]

HP, that interesting way to explain protein or sugar: hamburger or cola!!

What is the protein source, pollen I believe...??..  that would be good.

Just a note for your review:  Hair is 100 percent protein but indigestible, so of no value.  Soy bean are about 35.6 percent and totally digestible.  The source of protein is significant.

I have seen chicken feathers added to animal food to raise the protein content thus a label with a high protein content deceiving the buyer into believing what was thought of as a high protein food for stock.  Most mammals cannot digest protein from feathers but by adding feathers the amount of protein was increased for labeling: 26 percent protein.  Sounded good, however the actual digestive protein was much, much lower.

Van from Arkansas

[Ben Framed]

HP, that interesting way to explain protein or sugar: hamburger or cola!!

What is the protein source, pollen I believe...??..  that would be good.

Just a note for your review:  Hair is 100 percent protein but indigestible, so of no value.  Soy bean are about 35.6 percent and totally digestible.  The source of protein is significant.

I have seen chicken feathers added to animal food to raise the protein content thus a label with a high protein content deceiving the buyer into believing what was thought of as a high protein food for stock.  Most mammals cannot digest protein from feathers but by adding feathers the amount of protein was increased for labeling: 26 percent protein.  Sounded good, however the actual digestive protein was much, much lower.

Van from Arkansas

That was very interesting Mr. Van, I like ultrabee. Very high in protein. I hope it's not full of chicken feathers ha ha Ha.  Just kidding about the chicken feathers, I believe this to be a tried-and-true product from everything I have read, studied, and been advised.  However, I don't know if ultrabee is readily available in Greece? If not, there is a very good video on YouTube which uses,  soy flour as a base. This mixture is very high in protein and probably will do the trick. But being soy flower is expensive and the trouble of finding it, and per the advice of others I simply settled my mind by using ultrabee. And may I add, I am glad that I did.
Phillip

[van from Arkansas]

Mr. Ben, I use ultra bee also. My bees appear to delight in the sub pollen.

Hops, direct and to the point,,,as usual {protein is for brood}
HP {diet is determined by goals} well stated.

Mr. Ben: I believe we both have excellent guidance from the beeks of Beemaster.  I personally have at least a dozen or so favorite beeks on Beemaster,,, some half way around the world.

Approximately 52 years since my first hive and I assure a person I have many, very many questions.

EXAMPLE:
Another topic, maybe I should start a new thread: I am still trying to understand how bees recognize each other:  hive ordor, colony odor, entrance approach, body movements, looks,,, I have watched bees entering the hives for countless hours, some bees march right in unchecked as it would appear, while other hives have guard bees that appear to check every incoming bee.

I did notice a particular hive entrance that caught my attention.  Full open entrance yet the incoming bees landed on specific 3 small areas.  If an incoming bee landed outside these areas on the entrance the guards approached the incoming bee.  I though ah ha, I am on to something, but continued watching revealed no particular pattern.  Darn it.

Brother Adam was convinced hive ordor or colony odor had zero effect on acceptance, recognition of a given bee within a hive.  The man simple stated there are other non understanding means of recognizing fellow bees.  I feel confident that odor does indeed play some role regarding reconization of bees within a hive, although who am I to question Brother Adam.
Blessings

[Ben Framed]

Mr Van
  On your first example. Would it help if you or someone else here, possiably were to mark x number of worker bees from 4 hives, side by side, each hive representing its own color. Then simply sit back, enjoy some freshly squeezed leamon aid and observe. Are the marked, colored bees consistently returning to the expected hives? Or mixed results? Maybe even set up a video 🎥 at one of the experimental, hive enterances to use as an aid. The peak of the flow would possiably be the most beneficial time for this , as the bees will be the busiest? It might be interesting to find the results?
Yes Brother Adam was quite a bee man. I thank you for bringing him and his work to my attention last spring.  He accomplished so so much!  God Bless his contribution to his life's work and results that he shared concerning our beloved honeybee! Thanks Mr Van for all your input, your questions are much welcome as well as educational!
Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"

[BeeMaster2]

Per Honey Bee Biology was and Beekeeping, page 108-109, it is Colony Odor that is partly obtained from the queen and mixed odor from the food collected and stored by the colony.
Jim

[van from Arkansas]

Yes, Mr. Jim, makes sense.  Your text is what I always believed.  Colony odor is the scent of the queen and bees whereas hive odor is the scent of the wax, frames, honey, pollen wood hive body, essentially everything in the hive.

Brother Adam was convinced these odors have have no effect in bees recognizating bees??  I?m with you Mr. Jim but at the same time I keep Brother Adams words in mind.

Mr. Ben, I?ll take the lemonade any day, you mark and watch the bees.  It?s a good idea...  It is your idea!!!!!  So we expect results this July.

BTW where is Beepro???

Pleasant weather to all.

[TheHoneyPump]

***************
Pleasant weather to all.
***************

Not quite.  Will be awhile yet.

[van from Arkansas]

Oh Man, HP, I get chilled just looking at your pic, minus 17C.  Our low is positive 17F and I just know I am going to freeze.  I Hope appropriate weather finds you.  Your bees must be so different from mine.

[Ben Framed]

***************
Pleasant weather to all.
***************

Not quite.  Will be awhile yet.

Goodness!!! Keep the wood piled high in the heater!! 

[Ben Framed]

Mr. Ben, I use ultra bee also. My bees appear to delight in the sub pollen.

Hops, direct and to the point,,,as usual {protein is for brood}
HP {diet is determined by goals} well stated.

Mr. Ben: I believe we both have excellent guidance from the beeks of Beemaster.  I personally have at least a dozen or so favorite beeks on Beemaster,,, some half way around the world.

Approximately 52 years since my first hive and I assure a person I have many, very many questions.

EXAMPLE:
Another topic, maybe I should start a new thread: I am still trying to understand how bees recognize each other:  hive ordor, colony odor, entrance approach, body movements, looks,,, I have watched bees entering the hives for countless hours, some bees march right in unchecked as it would appear, while other hives have guard bees that appear to check every incoming bee.

I did notice a particular hive entrance that caught my attention.  Full open entrance yet the incoming bees landed on specific 3 small areas.  If an incoming bee landed outside these areas on the entrance the guards approached the incoming bee.  I though ah ha, I am on to something, but continued watching revealed no particular pattern.  Darn it.

Brother Adam was convinced hive ordor or colony odor had zero effect on acceptance, recognition of a given bee within a hive.  The man simple stated there are other non understanding means of recognizing fellow bees.  I feel confident that odor does indeed play some role regarding reconization of bees within a hive, although who am I to question Brother Adam.
Blessings

Ah haa ha haa, Why didn't I think you might suggest that?  Well whichever of us do this, will be sure to have swollen fingers to boot!! I watched a video some time back explaining how to bee-line, (find feral bee hives in the wild), which showed how to mark worker bees quits simply. If I can find the video I will pm to you..  Thanks Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Mr Claude, Im sure that Im not the first to think of such a thing as discussed below, do you know if this has been done?
Thanks Phillip

Mr Van
  On your first example. Would it help if you or someone else here, possiably were to mark x number of worker bees from 4 hives, side by side, each hive representing its own color. Then simply sit back, enjoy some freshly squeezed leamon aid and observe. Are the marked, colored bees consistently returning to the expected hives? Or mixed results? Maybe even set up a video 🎥 at one of the experimental, hive enterances to use as an aid. The peak of the flow would possiably be the most beneficial time for this , as the bees will be the busiest? It might be interesting to find the results?
Yes Brother Adam was quite a bee man. I thank you for bringing him and his work to my attention last spring.  He accomplished so so much!  God Bless his contribution to his life's work and results that he shared concerning our beloved honeybee! Thanks Mr Van for all your input, your questions are much welcome as well as educational!
Phillip Hall "Ben Framed"

[SiWolKe]

Brother Adam, as I recall, placed the entrances into different directions.
If you toss a queenless colony into the grass and take away the hive body they crowed at this place for a while, the beg into the nearest hive if possible.
So I believe the orientate to the place the queen?s nest is.

I did an experiment once to place two queenless mini mating nucs in my established yard ( bees were from a strong colony of that location).
I wanted to know how long they last and wether they would stay having no queen.
They stayed in the boxes until their life was over, some drones they bred moved to the big colonies.
Both mini nucs did not drift. Both stored a little honey. The first frost nights killed them.

An experienced Beekeeper, Bernhard Heuvel, posted in another forum to use geometric signs on the entrances.
Mostly the entrances are marked by colours here, but the bees cannot distinguish between colours much.
They can between geometric signs, as J?rgen Tautz, a scientist, found out.

[van from Arkansas]

Sibylle: regarding your experience with the nucs that died, I have a question.  When you created the nucs, did you provide larva or eggs?

I ask due to my experience with nurse bees.  The nurse bees will not leave larva or eggs, the nurses will die if they have to but not leave.  So when ever I create a NEW:mating nuc or small colony or package bees, etc I always provide young larva and the bees will stay, never abandoning the newly created nuc.

If you had a drone layer in the nuc, I would guess the same.  Nurse bees will not abandone young bees, drones or workers and die as you experience.
Best of all good things.

[SiWolKe]

Sibylle: regarding your experience with the nucs that died, I have a question.  When you created the nucs, did you provide larva or eggs?

I ask due to my experience with nurse bees.  The nurse bees will not leave larva or eggs, the nurses will die if they have to but not leave.  So when ever I create a NEW:mating nuc or small colony or package bees, etc I always provide young larva and the bees will stay, never abandoning the newly created nuc.

If you had a drone layer in the nuc, I would guess the same.  Nurse bees will not abandone young bees, drones or workers and die as you experience.
Best of all good things.

I introduced two virgin queens of a tf strain into two mini mating nucs, using bees from my established colonies.
I placed them at home first, 20km far. The queens were released but did not come back from mating flights.
I did provide with food but since it was apidea I had no brood. Only mini frames and bees.

After the failure I moved them back to my beeyard but decided to watch what happens. I wanted to know how long summer bees live in a broodless situation ( 3 months)
I wanted to see whether the strong colonies, which were well provided with stores, rob them or whether they drift.
I hanged one medium honey stores comb into a deep box and put the apidea on the floor of this deep. Did this two times. The bees came out of the apidea and lived on the medium frame.

They were not robbed and they did not drift much. They existed until first frost as a fistful of bees, then they could not keep warm. They never did beg into the other colonies.
IME it?s a typical monticola behaviour. When I had both races in my beeyard, carniolans and elgons, they did not mix by drifting. Not even the drones went into foreign colonies as long as the colony was F1 ( daughter of pure bred).
The elgons I have are very yellow, the carniolans were grey. There are no carniolans left, the hybrids all crashed from the mites.
The elgon hybrids seem to be more resistant so far.

The experiment was because I want to know the parameters to survivability and not drifting and races keeping to themselves by mating could be one.

[van from Arkansas]

Sibylle, thank you.  On Beemaster you are the first person that uses the word APIDEA instead of mating nuc to my knowledge.  In US, beeks appear to use the wording MINI MATING NUC instead, I don?t know why.  I realize beeks in US understand the term but seldom use.

My guess: API is Latin for honey bee, like Apis mellifera?? Do any beeks know for sure??  Just a little thing.  I?m board, to cold to venture outside, 16F this AM, high of 40F in North Arkansas.  HP, in Canada is gonna laugh at me.

[SiWolKe]

apidae is the bee species, wild bees, honey bees.

apidea I don?t know, api..bee---dea...god.  I don?t know why the mini mating nucs are called apidea. Bet Michael Bush knows.

[van from Arkansas]

Google search, apis Latin definition:

Apis is Latin for bee
melli Is French for honey

Thus Apis mellifera is the scientific name for the honey bee.