Possible AHB takeover?

CoolBees · March 07, 2019, 02:25:22 PM

Howdy everyone. I've got a question. Will AHB's take over a Laying Worker hive?

Here's why I ask - I had a May 2018 split (10 deep) that I moved to a relatives house last summer. My designation for this hive was H5. I did not treat this hive for mites over the winter - (as a control group for the 4 hives at my house that were treated). My December inspection notes show 7 frames bees. Jan shows 6 frames. Feb 11th showed 4 frames bees, all drone brood ... a queenless Laying Worker hive. I knew I had to deal with it, so I closed it up and went home to study about what to do.

Also note, this hive has alwas been gentle to work with. I have never needed gear to work this hive. I'm gentle, and they are polite.

Having decided to just shake them out, I went over yesterday afternoon without any gear. (Stupid, I know). I took off the lid, lifted the inner cover, and got mobbed. Promptly stung on the nose. I went running to my truck some 20 yds off with a cloud of bees in pursuit. Drove home, got my bee jacket and elbow length line-man's leather gloves, and returned. Didn't think I'd need the smoker. ... wrong again.

I preceded to gently remove empty frames while getting mobbed and stung thru my jeans - until only the 3 frames of bees remained. Rain and night were coming, and my German-Irish temper was up. I left them to the rain, with covers off, and went home.

This morning I returned, with smoker and thick, loose fitting pants. They were wet, and still ready to fight, but not as bad. I removed 1 frame, and observed worker brood, and only 6 or so drones. What the???? I checked the frame for a queen, walked away, and shook it out. 2nd frame, same results.

On the 3rd and final frame, I found the queen - large, sleek, black, and glossy with dark orange highlights. I did not want these genetics. I shook the frame out. ... then it dawned on me I should have some pictures. I tried to find her in the piles of bees on the ground but couldn't. The pics turned out blurry.

These bees were crazy - attacking in clouds. Are they AHB? Or just aggressive ferals? I don't know.

For SURE this was a Laying Worker hive 4 Weekes ago. On the bottom board were piles of dead moldy bee parts.

Anyways - I did not want them. Now that I've calmed down, I still think I did right. This was the type of hive you can't walk past without getting attacked. ... anyone's thoughts?

Michael Bush · March 07, 2019, 03:20:58 PM

Sometimes AHB will usurp a colony. A swarm will move in and take over. They don't seem to care if there is or isn't a queen, but you would think they would prefer a queenless hive.

But any laying worker hive is not happy especially when you are shaking them out.

CoolBees · March 07, 2019, 04:59:10 PM

"But any laying worker hive is not happy especially when you are shaking them out"

I totally understand that. :) can't blame them :)

This one had normal worker brood and a queen. None of that was there 4 weeks ago.

BeeMaster2 · March 07, 2019, 05:29:30 PM

Coolbees,
Did you have drone brood in worker cells?
If rain was on the way, do not open the hives. I think the drop in pressure causes the bees to bee very aggressive.
To answer your question, they definitely do take over hives whether queen right or not. Happens all the time. That is one of the reasons why commercial beeks in south Florida requeen their hives every 6 months. The other is queen failure.
Jim

van from Arkansas · March 07, 2019, 05:56:03 PM

Mr. CoolBee, well written, well described above text and very interesting to say the least.

Cool, I have shaken out laying worker hives, but the temperament was not like anything you described. Africian Honey Bees, AHB, can be determined by one of two methods: genetics or wing morphology. Wing morphology requires a stereo microscope.

So aggressive ferals or AHB???? Can?t say either way however CONSIDER full blooded AHB would have chased your vehicle, killed any mammals within site including humans.

The aggressive genes involved with AHB are poorly understood. Think about it, who wants to study deadly killer bees, how does one maintain deadly bee hives without danger to the surrounding area. I am not going to study such a killer bee, no way, no how.

There was a time, decades ago, that we thought by the time AHB arrives in the US the aggressive genes will be diluted by the local bee populations, that is, as the AHB migrates North and breeds with local drones the gene pool would be diluted. We were wrong, very wrong. The AHB was able to penetrate the US borders and maintain the incredible aggressiveness. Now my personal understanding of the genetics of AHB is sparse so I can?t privide details. I can say, if you opened a hive without protection and lived, on a more likely than not basic, the bees were not full blood AHB.

What I do not understand is about,,,, say half blood AHB, that is an Italian queen breeds with a AHB drone. Is such progeny deadly aggressive or just mean bees as you described? Are the genes quantitative for aggressiveness?? There was a AHB colony being studied living in Puerto Rico that was calm, non aggressive, However just recently, a hurricane nearly wiped Puerto Rico off the map taking the only known gentle AHB to the wind.

Cool, I think you did the right thing, ridding an aggressive hive. Your words, CANNOT WALK BY THE HIVE is my exact same criteria; that is, where I draw the line and requeen. I walk my hives everyday, weather permitting. As a hobbyist I can do this and enjoy the bees.
Blessings

sc-bee · March 07, 2019, 08:56:32 PM

You list you location as Northern Cal. Have AHB been verified in your area?

CoolBees · March 07, 2019, 10:37:53 PM

Jim - thanks for that. Maybe the weather was a factor. But for sure the hive had been taken over.

Van - nice answer. Thank you for taking the time. Maybe a mixed genetics. I wish I knew so much more - guess I'll have to put in the years and learn.

Sc Bee - yes. I think we're at the northern boundary of thier range. A commercial Beek lost 30 hives to AHB takeover this winter about 8 miles from me, so I guess it happens.

BeeMaster2 · March 07, 2019, 11:34:13 PM

Van,
There are several reasons why the Africanized bees have not calmed down. First when you have European queens and Africanized queen?s starting out as larvae, the Africanized queen will hatch a day or so early. This gives them a big advantage. When you have European drones and Africanized drones mating with a queen the Africanized sperm wins out at a very high percentage even if only a few Africanized drones mated compared to a large number of European drones. The researchers are not sure if it is the sperm controlling this or if the queens are selecting the AHB sperm.
Jim

Ben Framed · March 09, 2019, 06:27:45 PM

Alan, I am new to bees as you probably know by reading my post. But I do have a question for you and our friends here. First, from what I understand, Africanized bees are the color of Italians, in fact everything that I have heard and read indicate this. Just looking with the naked eye one can not see the difference in Italians and Africanized. So far, is this correct? Now, if this is correct, I will add, I have also heard and read that Russians queens are the color as you described. Is this correct everyone? And Russian bees behave as you described here. Can it be possible that a feral hive of Russian decent, or Russians from a neighbor has swarmed into your queenless hive? As Van said, and I am not agreeing or disagreeing, but I would think you would have been in much more trouble than you described. Even though the experience that you described was tough enough! 😁 ??

CoolBees · March 10, 2019, 12:26:19 AM

Jim - as always, thank you for sharing your knowledge. Every time you write, I learn new things. :)

Philip - it could be. Afterwards, I spent the day questioning if I had done the rigth thing. I think so - in the end. It was quite a shock when I started pulling frames expecting to see 100% drone brood (again) and finding normal brood instead. The one factor that makes me think I did the right thing, is that the hive had virtually no stores. Everything is blooming right now here it seems, and the hive had plenty of stores 4 weeks ago. Now, I didn't see and pollen, or brood food - even with lots of brood in various stages. ... Whether AHB's or Russian hybrids, or tough Ferals, I don't know - they did look Italian - right down to the 5-o'clock shadows.

I've raised all my hives from splits, and seen them go thru the different size stages and they should have had stores. With lack of stores and hot tempers, I don't think this would have been genetics that I would have kept anyways. ... but I've got a lot to learn ...

Ben Framed · March 10, 2019, 12:55:27 AM

Quote from: CoolBees on March 10, 2019, 12:26:19 AM
Jim - as always, thank you for sharing your knowledge. Every time you write, I learn new things. :)

Philip - it could be. Afterwards, I spent the day questioning if I had done the rigth thing. I think so - in the end. It was quite a shock when I started pulling frames expecting to see 100% drone brood (again) and finding normal brood instead. The one factor that makes me think I did the right thing, is that the hive had virtually no stores. Everything is blooming right now here it seems, and the hive had plenty of stores 4 weeks ago. Now, I didn't see and pollen, or brood food - even with lots of brood in various stages. ... Whether AHB's or Russian hybrids, or tough Ferals, I don't know - they did look Italian - right down to the 5-o'clock shadows. I've raised all my hives from splits, and seen them go thru the different size stages and they should have had stores. With lack of stores and hot tempers, I don't think this would have been genetics that I would have kept anyways. ... but I've got a lot to learn ...

I don't blame you for not wanting a mean hive like that. One thing that you could have done differently is put everything back including the Queen. Ordered another queen from a proven breeder for a minimal amount of money. Then requeened the hive once the new queen arrived. Following the proper steps of course. That way your hive would have still sustained a suitable amount of bees for work and nurse bees etc. From what I understand, all the workers will only live a few weeks when a flow is on anyway. All the while you new queen would stay busy laying and restocking desirable bees in the place of the dieing off mean workers. Your hive would soon be restocked with desireable stock from you new gentle queen, and running strong without breaking a cycle. Maybe the more seasoned keepers will tell us differently?? And don't feel like the the Lone Ranger, as I have much to learn also.