Foundationless Frames With Aid of Fishingline

Ben Framed · March 28, 2019, 01:15:31 PM

I have read a thread here discussing fishing line as re-enforcement with foundation added. It seems the consensus pretty much was a nay answer and opinion. Has anyone here tried foundationless with the aid of fishing line, allowing the bees to draw comb incorporating in the line in the new drawn comb? Since that thread, I have and am with good results. Anyone else?
Phillip

Michael Bush · March 28, 2019, 02:20:52 PM

I haven't done fishing line, but they incorporated wire just fine. I don't do it anymore. The wire is always in my way...

Waveeater · March 28, 2019, 03:24:01 PM

I tried it last year using two different types of line. They built around both of them. I will use wire from now on.

TheHoneyPump · March 28, 2019, 04:08:22 PM

The sole purpose of the wire or line is to provide support to the wax so the frame does not blow apart in the extractor.

If you are dealing with brood frames that will not ever be put in the extractor then no extra support is needed at all. No need for wire or anything.

For frames that will be extracted, use steel/copper wire or go with the plastic foundation. The fishing line stretches, effectively being completely useless at its purpose of supporting the wax during the forces of honey extraction.

The only place and time that fishing line would be an option to consider is when hiving a cutout. Use the fishing line to tie cuts of comb into the frames that the cutout colony is being re-hived into. It is also useful for patching back together chunks of comb from a hive that had been ripped apart by Winnie-The-Pooh or some other two legged creature. Fishing line is easy to work with and helps hold bits of comb together until the bees are able to rework the comb and bind it into the frame to their liking.

No other conceivable use for fishing line in a beehive or the beekeepers tool box; in terms of normal hive management and operations. Excepting of course if there is a nice creek near your bee yard and you want to go toss a hook in over lunch hour break.

Hope that helps!

MikeyN.C. · March 28, 2019, 05:56:39 PM

Ben,
I watched a YouTube I think it was Fatbeeman. He said when he would let bee's naturally make Q's with splits and if he needed to cut some of those Q cells out of the comb. That the bee's always seemed to build Q cell's on the wire . So a knife not cutting wire, fishing line knife cuts rite thru.

Ben Framed · March 28, 2019, 06:32:07 PM

Yes Mikey, that is one advantage and a big one! How hard is it to cut queen cells from a plastic cell, if the intention is to save the queen? there are other advantages also. Being this is my first year beekeeping I have no drawn comb stored. I am searching for good things. A good thing about the fishing line incorporated with going completely FOUNDATIONLESS is, less fear of the breaking away or tearing away of new comb.,New wax is very fragile to say the least. The last thing that I would want to do is pull out a freshly drawn, white waxed new comb, which might have the queen on it and loaded with new larva and eggs along with bees, fall of the frame onto the ground. So far, my bees hasn't hesitated in drawing wax, incorporating the 15 lb test line into the comb. I love it! ❤️!!! I will have wax which is chemical free. No buying foundation. No cross wiring and melting wire into foundation, the bees take care of it. 👍🏻 Is my vote so far!

BeeMaster2 · March 28, 2019, 06:34:45 PM

Phillip,
Did you steam test the fishing line to see if it will hold up in a steam box wax melter?
Jim Altmiller

paus · March 28, 2019, 06:43:17 PM

For me and my loss of dexterity I can go the 2 or 3 skewer method, been going that a few years and I really like the skewers.

Ben Framed · March 28, 2019, 06:49:13 PM

Quote from: sawdstmakr on March 28, 2019, 06:34:45 PM
Phillip,
Did you steam test the fishing line to see if it will hold up in a steam box wax melter?
Jim Altmiller

No I haven't tried that Jim. If it does that will be wonderful, if not I am still ahead of no support at all during the time of the use cycle of the comb. I look forward to going into the fall and winter with plenty drawn frames of comb and the added support can't be a bad thing? Now, if the fishing line can withstand the steam wax melter as described by way out west, that will be an even bigger advantage for my purposes. Icing on the cake so to speak. Cake doesn't always have to have icing to be good, even though it helps improve the delight. 😊
Phillip

MikeyN.C. · March 28, 2019, 09:07:26 PM

Braided line ?

MikeyN.C. · March 28, 2019, 09:11:00 PM

Not monofilament .

Ben Framed · March 28, 2019, 11:29:10 PM

Quote from: MikeyN.C. on March 28, 2019, 09:11:00 PM
Not monofilament .

Yea monofilament. 15 pound cheap eagle claw from Walmart. Now remember strictly NO foundation. From other threads I have read bees do not incorporate foundation with monofilament. As far as that goes, I have read where folks lace the topbar with pop sickle sticks. I do not use pop sickle sticks. Instead I rip the desired strip from a one by board which is really a 3/4 board to the desired thickness, place in the groove of the top bar, and with the aid of an air pin gun (23) gauge, run 4 pins attaching the top bar and the strips together. I have not seen this done, something that I thought of and each one can be attached in seconds. Works like a charm. I have not had one culled yet! And I don't even add melted wax as some suggest, however I do checker board these in between already established Frames.
Phillip

CoolBees · March 28, 2019, 11:43:48 PM

... I rip the desired strip from a one by board which is really a 3/4 board to the desired thickness, place in the groove of the top bar, and with the aid of an air pin gun (23) gauge, run 4 pins attaching the top bar and the strips together.

Thats how I figured out to do it. Except I use wedge frames and flip the wedge into the groove on top (per Mr. Bush) and then air-nail in place.

... I don't even add melted wax as some suggest, ...

Me either. Works just fine.

however I do checker board these in between already established Frames.

Yup - I haven't tried without checker boarding yet. Things may be different then.

BUT - I use medium frames, and don't use any wires or fishing line. I just make sure the comb is connected to the frame on all sides prior to attempting extraction. I don't think this would work well on deep frames.

Ben Framed · March 29, 2019, 12:29:13 AM

Alan, as we both stated, I haven't tried without checker boarding either. Not that brave yet! But I have considered trying it. The though of the possibility of cross comb holds me back. Maybe someone here has and can fill us in?

cao · March 29, 2019, 12:40:06 AM

I tried putting a super of empty foundationless frames on top of a hive during a good flow once. Won't do that again. When I checked on it a week later they had drawn comb at a 45 degree angle across the frames. They had half the box drawn out and full of nectar. It was a mess to get straightened up. I will only put foundationless frames between drawn frames from now on.

CoolBees · March 29, 2019, 12:40:54 AM

Phillip - I saw Mr. Bush drop a package into a box full of foundationless frames in one of his videos. He says it works, but you have to keep an eye on them.

Checkerboarding works well though. Especially when you've got some resources to work with starting out.

Ben Framed · March 29, 2019, 12:43:44 AM

Wow cao, that was what I was suspecting and why I have been holding off from trying. I'm sure that you had a wedge as a guide on the bottom of each top bar?

Ben Framed · March 29, 2019, 12:46:53 AM

Quote from: CoolBees on March 29, 2019, 12:40:54 AM
Phillip - I saw Mr. Bush drop a package into a box full of foundationless frames in one of his videos. He says it works, but you have to keep an eye on them.

Checkerboarding works well though. Especially when you've got some resources to work with starting out.

Thanks Alan, I just sent a PM to you, unrelated to this topic. (It was an answer to you form one you sent to me a day or so ago) I didn't mean to wait this long to answer.

CoolBees · March 29, 2019, 12:51:21 AM

Cao - they can really make a mess when they get going can't they.

My 1st yr, my buddy gave me 2 deeps, but only 10 frames for the bottom box. He said he'd bring more frames once they started to expand. He and I weren't on the same page with the bees. When we tried to open the upper deep, we had a problem - it was completely full of comb attached to the lid, walls, and frames below. What a mess they can make, and quickly too!

Bees seemed happy though.

Ben Framed · March 29, 2019, 12:51:50 AM

Cao. Just shows how fast our bees work when resources are available.

Alan, I have all confidence in Mr Bush as well as what you tell me. But just as sure as the wind blows, I might get sidetracked for a week like cao did his results would probably be just my luck!! 😁😊. But I will admit, I'm still tempted!