Package problems

beesnweeds · April 22, 2019, 05:24:15 PM

The last 3 or 4 years I noticed a few more problems than usual helping beginners with nucs and packages. Undrawn frames, weak, DWV drones, queenless, high mite counts, etc. This year Ive found packages with dead queens (was given new queens) and short queens that have not started laying after 3 weeks. Also dead bees on the bottom of the packages that have DWV along with bees that are black and greasy. Treated the packages with OAV and found up to 20 mites or more after 24 hours in ALL packages. The price keeps going up and not so much the quality. Or maybe Ive just gotten better at finding problems and nucs / packages are always this way. One thing I do know is, if I didnt help these beginners many would not have a hive make it the first year or the summer for that matter. I would like to know what others are seeing, hopefully its just me.

Michael Bush · April 22, 2019, 05:40:24 PM

Quality has gone done every year for a couple of decades now.

van from Arkansas · April 22, 2019, 05:41:30 PM

Beesnweeds in the past I have purchased packaged bees from Georgia and had not a single issue. This year I only purchased queens for genetic diversity. I am wondering if THE supplier is the issue. Did all the problem packaged bees come from one supplier?

Thanks for being a mentor, I well remember my bee mentor half century ago when I was a kid, his name was Mark. If you are helping kids with bees they will always remember you.

beesnweeds · May 13, 2019, 12:24:37 AM

Okay so now one of the queens is a drone layer and I didn't find the queen yet. So many drones its almost hard to believe! I was thinking about shaking all the frames out into an empty deep with a queen excluder on the bottom. Maybe I can trap the drones and the drone layer and let them die while the workers go down to the frames below with brood then re queen the hive. Or does somebody have a better idea? Or is it just a waste of time to save a 5 week old package at this time? Yes, these are Georgia packages that are less than acceptable.

TheHoneyPump · May 13, 2019, 12:46:10 AM

Quote from: beesnweeds on May 13, 2019, 12:24:37 AM
Okay so now one of the queens is a drone layer and I didn't find the queen yet. So many drones its almost hard to believe! I was thinking about shaking all the frames out into an empty deep with a queen excluder on the bottom. Maybe I can trap the drones and the drone layer and let them die while the workers go down to the frames below with brood then re queen the hive. Or does somebody have a better idea? Or is it just a waste of time to save a 5 week old package at this time? Yes, these are Georgia packages that are less than acceptable.

Definitely agree: They do not make them like they used to. Check references and use reputable suppliers. ;)

Of the one hive mentioned: Could be a drone layer queen or could be a queenless that has gone laying worker - drones. Packages will often go for a supercedure of the packaged queen in the first week of her first viable eggs laid. If the supercedure cells are not checked and destroyed in the first 10 days of the package, things usually carry through to produce new virgins. She kills the queen. Then goes to mate. If too early in the year in your climate, or in a drone void bee yard surrounded by other package hives, there is no one to mate with and she becomes drone layer. There is always the chance she does not make it back from the mating attempt. In which case the hive goes laying worker and happily carries on making a lot of drones.
Long story short: packages need to be checked frequently (3 to 4 times) in the first 3 weeks to assure queen acceptance and for beekeeper intervention of early supercedure attempts in order to prevent what has just been described from happening. If you have not noticed the developing situation until now when the hive is full of walking drones, then it can be deducted that packaged hive has not been looked at in at least 3 to 4 weeks.

From what you described, at this point of 5 weeks it is a total lost cause as a colony. Though not lost as a box of warm bee bodies to put to work keeping brood warm. Drones may be good at that! What have you for other hives in the apiary? You are looking at a situation of shaking them out in the middle of the yard and let them beg their way into the nearby hives. Or manually splitting them up and combining some of those drones and bees to each of the other hives. Or if have one REALLY big strong hive, do a newspaper combine on top and let the bees sort out who gets to stay and who gets tossed.
In any case, you have to do your absolute darnedest best to find if there is a queen in there, if there even is one. For if there is a drone laying queen, she will cause problems in the other hives the bees will be going to. Find her, kill her, distribute the bees and drones, carry on.

Oldbeavo · May 13, 2019, 08:33:48 AM

I find most drone hives are from a queenless hive that has a drone laying worker.
Shake the bees out 20 or 30 yards away, every bee, put the hive back where it was and add some brood with eggs and nurse nees and see if they draw a queen cell.
Works most times, but if not add more brood and try again as there will be young bees from the first lot of brood to form a cell.

beesnweeds · May 13, 2019, 06:02:01 PM

Not a laying worker, the original queen was dead in the cage. The shipper immediately gave me another queen as they are given extras by the supplier. The queen did start laying after she was released from the cage and all looked okay, I did see her on the comb with workers. No extra eggs in cells or on the walls of the cells, just normal looking eggs in the bottom center of the cells. The first capped brood (small patch) looked like any other brood, not bullet shaped after. So I figured it was good to go and left the hive alone for about 2 weeks as I normally do weekly to biweekly inspections in the spring. That's when I discovered frames of drone brood and now drones emerging. I did contact the supplier and they don't really care and said talk to the shipper.

TheHoneyPump · May 13, 2019, 06:17:57 PM

As advised, package startup requires frequent attention and occasionally intervention by the beekeeper until the colony is stabilized by completion of the first full brood cycle.
A package is a box of mixed up bees. It is not a colony. It is not a stable hive until one month in.
Nucleus are superior in that they are an established colony. Requiring much less attention on the part of the beekeeper.

beesnweeds · May 13, 2019, 06:22:52 PM

Thanks HP, I was doing frequent inspections. I guess I should have checked every 2 or 3 days for now on.

TheHoneyPump · May 13, 2019, 09:26:06 PM

2d/3d would be too frequent
5d/7d perfect
10d too long

beesnweeds · May 25, 2019, 12:20:51 PM

Well I'm glad I didn't consider this package a lost cause. I was able to get another Carniolan queen and took a chance and introduced her on a brood frame with a push in cage and now this hive looks pretty good with a couple frames of eggs and young brood. Some of the other packages I would say are NOT fully stable after a first full brood cycle as most of them do have supercedure cells. A full brood cycle isn't a good indicator of a stable hive and should continue to have frequent inspection until a new queen is raised or they replaced by the beekeeper. The first photo is the drone layer, I counted around 30 drones just in the photo! The second photo is a queen I think was a virgin they tossed in the package and never was able to mate properly, she never laid and egg. Both are in the alcohol jar of southern queen shame. I think this is the reality of a lot of packages now, like swarms, most of them probably don't make it through or to the first winter with beginners. If they weren't treated and had the queen replaced they would be a lost cause.

https://imgur.com/a/EZOC2R4

Oldbeavo · May 25, 2019, 08:08:55 PM

If you have hives that have survived winter and are doing well in Spring, then split these to increase your numbers, they are the bees that are suited to your environment and your management. You know their disease status.
You can make 4 frame nucs with 2 frames of brood and bees. So you can produce a lot of nucs in a season.
If you want bees then you won't get honey from your original hives as they are always rebuilding.

beesnweeds · May 25, 2019, 10:50:58 PM

Quote from: Oldbeavo on May 25, 2019, 08:08:55 PM
If you have hives that have survived winter and are doing well in Spring, then split these to increase your numbers, they are the bees that are suited to your environment and your management. You know their disease status.
You can make 4 frame nucs with 2 frames of brood and bees. So you can produce a lot of nucs in a season.
If you want bees then you won't get honey from your original hives as they are always rebuilding.

Thanks, I understand that. The drone layer was a package I picked up just because there was extras, didn't plan on saving it by buying a queen and taking a frame of brood from one of my overwintered hives. The rest are all beginners I've been helping out. I make nucs and queens every Spring. This year has been a cold wet start and I'm late in rearing queens.