Did my queens die out? questions

StraferX · May 10, 2019, 09:45:33 PM

Hello and thanks your input. I'm new at this game and have plenty to learn

I installed 2 packages into 2 hives 4- 24th they were very healthy and queens looked great. 5-1 inspection showed queens released and good build up of comb in both hives but I did not find any eggs, plenty of nectar and pollen stored and bees bringing in good pollen. Inspection today 5-10 to freshen miller feeders and inspect progress.

upon inspection both hives have a good count of bees, both hives have great signs of progress hive 1 has 7 out of 10 frames at 70%+/_ comb build out. I see plenty of nectar and pollen and a good start on capped stores, I find 4 locations of at least half frame c shaped larva and 3 areas of capped brood. I did not see the queen or any smaller eggs however there are 7 supercedure cells with 5 of them capped in the middle of the frames.

Hive 2 there are more bees here but 25% less build up of comb on frames. still have some capped stores and plenty of nectar and pollen with good pattern. I do not see any eggs and no larva and no capped brood and I did not see the queen however there are NO supercedure cells.

I live in southern West Virginia and these hives are 1 10 frame super, inner cover, screened bottom boards, miller feeder with top entrances only.

So my question are as follows.
1. should I wait 2 days then reinspect and try to find the queens and look for larva/eggs in hive 2.
2. if no queens found let hive 1 raise new queens.
3. swap a frame from hive 1 with queen cells and place in hive 2 so they can raise a new queen.
4. if no queens or new growth witnessed in a few days order new queens.

My daughter shot a 20 minute video and it is of poor quality, shaky and did not get a close up of the larva, the only usefulness it may serve is to show the development of the hives and my new beekeeping mistakes in action. I have a lot to learn and appreciate any input you all may give.

https://youtu.be/-iUrHJiw1jg

iddee · May 10, 2019, 10:18:17 PM

A large number of packages will supercede the introduced queen and raise their own. If you have 2 frames with queen cells, I would move one of the frames, with bees, into #2. If only one frame with queen cells, move a frame with eggs into #2. Then leave both alone for 14 days, with only a quick peek into #2 to find queen cells in the egg frame. Report back then. Most likely will then wait 7 more days.
The progression is not the best, but is still acceptable for packages.

StraferX · May 10, 2019, 11:35:36 PM

Thank you Iddee for your insite, Tomorrow is out as my daughter graduates from college so Sunday I will get back and work the hives over. As a side note I will be using my tripod for videos as my daughter wants to get more hands on and is not great at camera work.

Thanks again

cao · May 11, 2019, 01:20:42 AM

I agree with iddee. And it's good to hear that your daughter wants to be more hands on.

Brigsy · May 13, 2019, 06:33:52 AM

Hi,

Re hive one. If you have no queen or eggs, and multiple capped swarm cells they have probably already swarmed.

I would double check and then perform your preferred method of queen cell reduction etc to prevent further cast swarms when they emerge.

http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/There-Are-Queen-Cells-In-My-Hive-WBKA-WAG.pdf

This document is a useful resource.

StraferX · May 13, 2019, 06:23:40 PM

Update on my 2 colonies.

Weather here has been monsoon rain and I had a small window to inspect and make the swap this afternoon. I did not find any queens in either hive just more foundation growth and more resouces filled in.

In the second hive that Friday had no eggs, larva or queen that I could find now has 3 capped queen cells and 2 uncapped queen cells that I can see the larva in.

My action was to stop and put the hives back together, I did not do a swap as I thought there was no point if both hives have supercedure cells. Is this correct?
Should I now just leave the colony alone for a certain period, what is my next plan of action?

Thankyou for your help.

TheHoneyPump · May 14, 2019, 11:18:23 AM

This is not swarming

Go back to what iddee said in post #2.

Packages will often try to supercede the unfamiliar queen. There is rarely anything wrong with the queen that came with the package. The issue is that a package is a box of mixed up bees from multiple hives stiffed together. A package is NOT a colony, not a hive, until they settle down and get to know each other. That does not happen for a couple weeks at least. Also the issue and risk to the queen remains until the first brood cycle is complete (21-30 days). During that period the beekeeper needs to be checking weekly (5 to 7 day intervals) and intervening to prevent situations like this.

Inspect the hives again, asap. Be thorough. If you see good eggs or larvae, evidence of a queen, then take action to destroy ALL queen cells. .... NB: there would not be queen cells in the first place if there were not a laying queen. Help her get established by stopping the rogue queen cells.

Hope that helps.

Brigsy · May 14, 2019, 12:54:09 PM

Interesting. Packages aren't common over here in the UK. Do they just bump a queen off and raise their own sometimes with packages? I guess they are rather unsettled, as you say ,for quite a while.

TheHoneyPump · May 14, 2019, 01:30:40 PM

Unlike a swarm, a package is not a bunch of bees of sisters and mother that know each other and have allegiance to the queen in their midst. A package is literally a mixed bunch of bees from multiple hives unceremoniously tossed and stuffed into a cage, then given a queen in a cage (also a stranger) and sent off. A package is not a colony, ... yet.

Packages are typically started in a hive with no brood and often on bare foundation or foundationless. There is no laying queen pheromone emanated throughout the hive and there is no brood/larvae pheromone emanated either. Take that situation and dump in a bunch of bees who are strangers. Soon as they are free from the cage they are looking to leave to go find the home they were shaken out of. (aka abscond). If no other suitable hive is found, they usually come back. Until the queen gets her equipment ramped up, laying a bunch, and her smelling nice. Also until there is a sizeable patch of brood/larvae also smelling nice. ... the bees are stressed and unsettled. This situation is made worse if there are essential oils and other stinky stuff put into the hive or the sugar syrup. There is insufficient pheromone queues and confusing aromas from whatever the beekeeper is adding - to the point of causing belief they are queenless. Hence, queen cells are made at their first opportunity. Those queen cells, technically, are emergency queen cells rather than supercedure.

The bees will rarely kill the queen, especially if properly introduced. What happens is those early panic made queen cells complete to emergence and the new virgin(s) kill the queen. You would expect the queen to destroy the queen cells. However, she may be too busy trying to get established in a strange hive with strange bees. It is not her hive yet. So she either does not try or the bees prevent her from getting to them.

Anyway. ... long story short is that packages are a great way to get a beehive started. It is economical and depending on the source the bees and queens are great quality. However, packages do require understanding of what is going on in those first 3 weeks and therefore they require attention and interventions to keep the bees on track until they are sorted and settled.

All that said, if after 2 months of interventions they are still trying to replace the queen then let them do so or give them a new one. At that point sufficient time has passed that the settling period is well over and they are then telling you something - that the queen does need to be replaced. Until then, understand the intricacies of starting up a packaged hive as described and checkin in weekly to help her get established as reign supreme by stopping the emergency/supercedure cells.

Never can tell with bees. Some packages settle in without any problems. Others take some finessing to get them to stay and get established. Important thing is to check in and take appropriate action.

Hope that helps!

Brigsy · May 14, 2019, 07:14:29 PM

Thanks for the full reply. Lesson learned. Cheers.

StraferX · May 28, 2019, 07:01:13 PM

It has been 18 days so A follow up is in order. After my last inspection I made a decision that the bees were smarter than I and to let them do what they were going to do with out my intervention and observer from the outside.

Today I went to the hives and they are both very active with flying in and out of the hives. Hive A is telling me to make a larger opening for the top entrance so tomorrow I will quickly make that alteration, hive B already has a larger opening and seemed happy. The hives were quiet Clear sunny day 82, 15 mph wind 4pm.

After my inspection I can report that the bees were calm no smoke necessary I did however wear my suit for the first time just as precaution that they were angry.
All supercedure cells have been opened and mostly cleaned away, all those larva have hatched and I see young bees and more population than last inspection. The great news is that I see many many eggs across at least 3 frames in each hive with a very nice tight pattern of eggs with a bit of capped honey on the edges and some pollen. They have at least 2 full frames of capped stores and from what I can tell it looks like the capped honey has changed from capped syrup to capped honey due to color. They have been busy with the propolis gluing things up and keeping a very tidy hive.

Inspecting the bottom board I see zero SHB yet 3 varroa mites otherwise non remarkable.

The miller feeders are close to empty roughly 1/2 inch in the bottom is left, with plenty of flowers blooming and a field of clover and capped honey I think I will not feed them until things start to dry up.

What are your thoughts, did I do the right thing. As much as I want to inspect a couple times a week should I just leave them alone another 14 days.

The last picture is how much they have built out a foundationless frame in 14 days the first 2 are of new eggs.

Thanks for helping a new beekeeper out.

[attachment=0][/attachment]

Donovan J · May 28, 2019, 08:46:55 PM

Quote from: StraferX on May 28, 2019, 07:01:13 PM
It has been 18 days so A follow up is in order. After my last inspection I made a decision that the bees were smarter than I and to let them do what they were going to do with out my intervention and observer from the outside.

Today I went to the hives and they are both very active with flying in and out of the hives. Hive A is telling me to make a larger opening for the top entrance so tomorrow I will quickly make that alteration, hive B already has a larger opening and seemed happy. The hives were quiet Clear sunny day 82, 15 mph wind 4pm.

After my inspection I can report that the bees were calm no smoke necessary I did however wear my suit for the first time just as precaution that they were angry.
All supercedure cells have been opened and mostly cleaned away, all those larva have hatched and I see young bees and more population than last inspection. The great news is that I see many many eggs across at least 3 frames in each hive with a very nice tight pattern of eggs with a bit of capped honey on the edges and some pollen. They have at least 2 full frames of capped stores and from what I can tell it looks like the capped honey has changed from capped syrup to capped honey due to color. They have been busy with the propolis gluing things up and keeping a very tidy hive.

Inspecting the bottom board I see zero SHB yet 3 varroa mites otherwise non remarkable.

The miller feeders are close to empty roughly 1/2 inch in the bottom is left, with plenty of flowers blooming and a field of clover and capped honey I think I will not feed them until things start to dry up.

What are your thoughts, did I do the right thing. As much as I want to inspect a couple times a week should I just leave them alone another 14 days.

The last picture is how much they have built out a foundationless frame in 14 days the first 2 are of new eggs.

Thanks for helping a new beekeeper out.

[attachment=0][/attachment]

Looking good! Sounds like the queens just had a slow start. It can take a few weeks for them to get started laying. I think you did the right thing, check again in a week to make sure all is going well.

cao · May 29, 2019, 01:00:44 AM

I agree with Xerox. "check again in a week". Two weeks IMO is too long.

BeeMaster2 · May 29, 2019, 08:09:26 AM

Strafer,
Quote: What are your thoughts, did I do the right thing. As much as I want to inspect a couple times a week should I just leave them alone another 14 days.
Inspecting a couple times a week will kill a queen, especially a new queen. If you only find eggs, it was to soon to bee in that hive. Bees will blame a new queen on your intrusion and ball her. Since you have 2 hives, inspect one hive one week and the other the following week.
Have a purpose for going into the hive. If you are trying to verify that the queen is okay, inspect until you find eggs, then close it up.
Remember, the bees have to fix everything that you damage or change. They stop everything and fix. They even stop guarding the SHBs in the cages and they start laying their eggs while the bees are fixing the hive. Then when they are done the bees have to remove the SHB eggs before they hatch and start sliming your hive.
Jim Altmiller

StraferX · May 29, 2019, 09:52:46 AM

Thank you guys for your advise, I will wait a week before disturbing them again.
I am learning that less is more, the less intrusion to gather necessary information the better.
With plenty of quality flowers in bloom I think they are appreciating me just watching
from the hive entrance more than digging in.

I think I need to build that observation hive, I have a good stock of hickory that would make a beautiful cabinet and would satisfy my desire to open the hive and watch.