Some questions based on the writings of Walt Wright

[2Sox]

I've been recently reading Walt Wright's articles on swarming, checkerboarding, and hive management and I have found them incredibly insightful and useful. I would encourage everyone to read them:

https://beesource.com/point-of-view/walt-wright/

Rather than to cut and paste an entire section here to this post, I refer you to Part 1, points #2 through #6

Quoting Walt, "The bees resist storing above their honey dome. This may be because in the wild the top is a constant. A new swarm settling in a cavity, goes to the top and builds comb downward." And he continues with more detail.

My question: What would prevent us Langstroth beekeepers from doing what is done with the Warre?  Adding supers underneath the almost filled honey supers - instead of on top? Is the reason just the extra work involved in the lifting? Or is it something else?  Has anyone tried this, to your knowledge?

Addendum: It's my understanding that more beekeepers than not, use excluders and also most use deeps for broodnests.  I do neither. I use all mediums. It's known that the queen lays upwards in a bell curve pattern which *usually* doesn't go past the 4th medium. As I see it, if we discarded excluders, and added boxes to the bottom, the bees could be afforded extra room for either brood or stores and thus hopefully have less tendency to swarm.  What do you think?

[CoolBees]

2sox - you raise some good questions.

I'm no expert, but I have been studying for the last couple years. Here's some 'food for thought' that I've run across on the topic.

First off, I think Mr. Bush in his writings makes a great point - i.e. "Swarming is the reproductive process of the honey bee colony - it is the main goal that a colony strives towards throughout its life cycle" (paraphrased - and I think that's where I read that).

Second - Etalia (Bill) on the Down Under page made a great point yesterday here - https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=49624.300 (reply #306) - his point being that preventing a colony from reaching "Critical Swarming Mass" is a better deterrent to swarming than any other approach - i.e. maintaining a hive in "less space" during non-flow times, as adverse to "adding room", to prevent swarming.

I don't know who's "more right" in this, but I thought I'd post this info as "food for thought" ... comments welcome ...

[2Sox]

2sox - you raise some good questions.

I'm no expert, but I have been studying for the last couple years. Here's some 'food for thought' that I've run across on the topic.

Second - Etalia (Bill) on the Down Under page made a great point yesterday here - https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=49624.300 (reply #306) - his point being that preventing a colony from reaching "Critical Swarming Mass" is a better deterrent to swarming than any other approach - i.e. maintaining a hive in "less space" during non-flow times, as adverse to "adding room", to prevent swarming.

I don't know who's "more right" in this, but I thought I'd post this info as "food for thought" ... comments welcome ...

Thanks for the reply. Since the question I had most in mind was about how to add supers, we can certainly leave the discussion this thought provoking idea (of decreasing space to prevent swarming) for another time. (However, at first read I'm exceedingly skeptical.)

Nevertheless, I'd be interested in what others think about my questions.

[The15thMember]

2Sox, the conversation you?d like to have may be incidentally going on on my thread ?Do Bees Draw Slower With Super On??.  Maybe you?d like to pop over there and take a look.

[cao]

My question: What would prevent us Langstroth beekeepers from doing what is done with the Warre?  Adding supers underneath the almost filled honey supers - instead of on top? Is the reason just the extra work involved in the lifting? Or is it something else?  Has anyone tried this, to your knowledge?

If you are talking about adding supers between broodnest and the honey,  I did that this year on some of my hives.  I think it is more about timing and what you need to check on in the hive.  The hives that I did "undersuper" were ones that I needed to check the brood nest any way.  So when I put the boxes back together, I just stuck an empty box between the brood nest and the top honey super.  Under normal circumstances it would be much easier to just plop the empty on top.

Addendum: It's my understanding that more beekeepers than not, use excluders and also most use deeps for broodnests.  I do neither. I use all mediums. It's known that the queen lays upwards in a bell curve pattern which *usually* doesn't go past the 4th medium. As I see it, if we discarded excluders, and added boxes to the bottom, the bees could be afforded extra room for either brood or stores and thus hopefully have less tendency to swarm.  What do you think?

I think that the deep for brood is the traditional way and it is hard for some people to break with tradition.  I have just about every size box in use in my bee yard.  If it wasn't for selling nucs, I probably would phase out the deeps.  As far as adding anything to the bottom, that requires lifting which I try to avoid any more than what is necessary.  Although I think in a more natural state would be to add boxes to the bottom of the stack and remove honey from the top.

[2Sox]

Addendum: It's my understanding that more beekeepers than not, use excluders and also most use deeps for broodnests.  I do neither. I use all mediums. It's known that the queen lays upwards in a bell curve pattern which *usually* doesn't go past the 4th medium. As I see it, if we discarded excluders, and added boxes to the bottom, the bees could be afforded extra room for either brood or stores and thus hopefully have less tendency to swarm.  What do you think?

I think that the deep for brood is the traditional way and it is hard for some people to break with tradition.  I have just about every size box in use in my bee yard.  If it wasn't for selling nucs, I probably would phase out the deeps.  As far as adding anything to the bottom, that requires lifting which I try to avoid any more than what is necessary.  Although I think in a more natural state would be to add boxes to the bottom of the stack and remove honey from the top.
[/quote]

Yep.  We think the same way.

[2Sox]

Another thing. Although Michael Bush doesn't state it outright, one of his methods of swarm control is essentially checkerboarding the broodnest. Scroll down to the section *Opening the Broodnest*.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm

Ever since I read MB's writing on this, I have done this.

And it has worked for me every time to prevent swarming - IF I stayed on top of it religiously.  I'd imagine staying on top of things one also has to do with Walt Wright's method of Checkerboarding the honey super. So, if you are going to lift up all those supers to checkerboard the supers anyway, why not just checkerboard the broadnest a la MB's method and leave the supers alone? OR since you are there anyway doing this manipulation, just add an empty honey super underneath the full ones and be done with it? I guess you could do both, but why bother doing all that work?  Choose one and go with it.

[BeeMaster2]

2Sox,
Checker boarding is placing empty frames in every other slot.
I?m pretty sure Michael does not recommend checker boarding the brood nest. He recommends adding space to the brood nest. You can add a frame next to the brood or even both sides or above it. You can add a frame in the brood nest depending on the weather. Just don?t checkerboard the brood nest.
Jim Altmiller

[CoolBees]

2sox - I followed Mr. Bush's checkerboarding of the supers, and adding a frame here-and-there to the broodnest this year, for 2 reason's: swarm prevention and regression. No hive swarmed - so it worked as far as I can tell.

As to Under-supering - it definitely seems to be a more natural approach.

[2Sox]

2Sox,
Checker boarding is placing empty frames in every other slot.
I?m pretty sure Michael does not recommend checker boarding the brood nest. He recommends adding space to the brood nest. You can add a frame next to the brood or even both sides or above it. You can add a frame in the brood nest depending on the weather. Just don?t checkerboard the brood nest.
Jim Altmiller

I stand corrected, Jim. Thanks for the clarification. I believe the term MB uses is "opening" the broodnest. What I have done for years, is opening by inserting an empty frame - with no foundation-  between each brood comb - above and below. In the box above, there would be an empty frame above a brood frame, and brood frame above an empty frame. Always worked for me. What's the downside of doing this?

[BeeMaster2]

The strongest swarm season here is usually February and March. The problem is that we still have cold snaps and with checker boarding you can get a lot of chilled brood just when we are trying to build up a hive.
Jim Altmiller

[2Sox]

The strongest swarm season here is usually February and March. The problem is that we still have cold snaps and with checker boarding you can get a lot of chilled brood just when we are trying to build up a hive.
Jim Altmiller

I get it. As with many things, it's location, location, location.

[2Sox]

My question: What would prevent us Langstroth beekeepers from doing what is done with the Warre?  Adding supers underneath the almost filled honey supers - instead of on top? Is the reason just the extra work involved in the lifting? Or is it something else?  Has anyone tried this, to your knowledge?

If you are talking about adding supers between broodnest and the honey,  I did that this year on some of my hives.  I think it is more about timing and what you need to check on in the hive.  The hives that I did "undersuper" were ones that I needed to check the brood nest any way.  So when I put the boxes back together, I just stuck an empty box between the brood nest and the top honey super.  Under normal circumstances it would be much easier to just plop the empty on top.

Addendum: It's my understanding that more beekeepers than not, use excluders and also most use deeps for broodnests.  I do neither. I use all mediums. It's known that the queen lays upwards in a bell curve pattern which *usually* doesn't go past the 4th medium. As I see it, if we discarded excluders, and added boxes to the bottom, the bees could be afforded extra room for either brood or stores and thus hopefully have less tendency to swarm.  What do you think?

I think that the deep for brood is the traditional way and it is hard for some people to break with tradition.  I have just about every size box in use in my bee yard.  If it wasn't for selling nucs, I probably would phase out the deeps.  As far as adding anything to the bottom, that requires lifting which I try to avoid any more than what is necessary.  Although I think in a more natural state would be to add boxes to the bottom of the stack and remove honey from the top.

Thanks for your reply, Cao. I agree.  Some beekeepers stay with tradition. Nothing wrong with that, but at least here we can question that tradition.

[yes2matt]

Quoting Walt, "The bees resist storing above their honey dome. This may be because in the wild the top is a constant. A new swarm settling in a cavity, goes to the top and builds comb downward." And he continues with more detail.

My question: What would prevent us Langstroth beekeepers from doing what is done with the Warre?  Adding supers underneath the almost filled honey supers - instead of on top? Is the reason just the extra work involved in the lifting? Or is it something else?  Has anyone tried this, to your knowledge?

C. C. Miller, in _Fifty years among the bees _ details adding a box of empty drawn comb *under* the  (single Lang deep) brood box that he overwintered a colony. So the bees could grow the nest down.  I can't quote chapter and verse, but that's how he said he did it, and Miller was one to try everything to prevent swarm and make more honey.

scratch that, here's chapter and verse. https://archive.org/details/fiftyyearsamongb00mill/page/114

I haven't tried it yet, but I intend to in 2020.

[Ben Framed]

The strongest swarm season here is usually February and March. The problem is that we still have cold snaps and with checker boarding you can get a lot of chilled brood just when we are trying to build up a hive.
Jim Altmiller

I get it. As with many things, it's location, location, location.

Fellows it gets pretty cold where Mr Buch lives also. Perhaps he will
Chime in?  I did this this spring , as Alan, and was very successful.
Phillip

[Michael Bush]

Checkerboarding indicates every other frame.  I would hardly ever do that in a brood nest. As used by Walt this is done in the supers.  Opening the brood nest should be done judiciously taking into account the outdoor temperatures, the strength of the hive etc.  chilled brood is always a concern.

[Ben Framed]

Checkerboarding indicates every other frame.  I would hardly ever do that in a brood nest. As used by Walt this is done in the supers.  Opening the brood nest should be done judiciously taking into account the outdoor temperatures, the strength of the hive etc.  chilled brood is always a concern.

Thanks Mr Bush, I did as Alan and worked well for me.

2sox - I followed Mr. Bush adding a frame here-and-there to the broodnest this year, for 2 reason's: swarm prevention and regression. No hive swarmed - so it worked as far as I can tell.