Hive Splitting?

[Donovan J]

I would like to have 4 colonies going into the winter and was wondering if its too late to do hive splits right now. I'm planning on doing a walk away split with Hive 2. Any thoughts?

[Ben Framed]

I would like to have 4 colonies going into the winter and was wondering if its too late to do hive splits right now. I'm planning on doing a walk away split with Hive 2. Any thoughts?

As Ace pointed out in another topic, I am from North Mississippi and David is from Georgia. It was easy for me to overwinter 5 late season splits last fall, after talking to him on the phone, (David), and taking his good advice I added mated queens . Our temperatures are pretty cold here. Reaching well below freezing here in North Mississippi several times during the winter months. Usually in the 20's many days and nights sometimes in the single digits, but not often in the single digits, (when the jet stream dips this far).  The following video is educational by David at Barnyard Bees. I am sure that there are others here which may be able to help you, who may live in colder areas than David, closer to the environment in which you live.  I will post the video just the same as it is educational. I would also recommend the videos featuring Michael Palmer on the subject of a sustainable apiary in the far North, and overwintering nucleus colonies. It would also be good if Mr Claude, TheHoneyPump would chime in. He lives in Canada where the temperature is critical. Mr Claude comes form a 7th generation family of commercial beekeepers, whose family runs thousands of commercial bee hives, producing thousand of pounds of wax per year, let alone all the honey. Being a humble man with a good heart, he may never tell you the above. He is very well educated and knows what he is talking about on the subject of bees as well as other subjects, being totally confident in the information he gives. Who better to receive information than folks whose families make their livelihood from bees? What better men than Michael Palmer, Ian Steppler and Claude P. along with others, to receive advise for your question, especially being they are possibly from a colder climate than yours? It is my opinion, to have the privilege to talk to, an receive advise from a person whose family makes a living with bees is a honor within itself. And lets not forget Michale Bush. Mr Bush comes from a very cold area also. Also, keep in mind no two people agree on everything, receive with graciousness and appreciation and they may very well chime in?
Phillip

https://youtu.be/ZhLX9IndROI

[saltybluegrass]

I would like to have 4 colonies going into the winter and was wondering if its too late to do hive splits right now. I'm planning on doing a walk away split with Hive 2. Any thoughts?

As Ace pointed out in another topic, I am from North Mississippi and David is from Georgia. It was easy for me to overwinter 5 late season splits last fall, after talking to him on the phone, (David), and taking his good advice I added mated queens . Our temperatures are pretty cold here. Reaching well below freezing here in North Mississippi several times during the winter months. Usually in the 20's many days and nights sometimes in the single digits, but not often in the single digits, (when the jet stream dips this far).  The following video is educational by David at Barnyard Bees. I am sure that there are others here which may be able to help you, who may live in colder areas than David, closer to the environment in which you live.  I will post the video just the same as it is educational. I would also recommend the videos featuring Michael Palmer on the subject of a sustainable apiary in the far North, and overwintering nucleus colonies. It would also be good if Mr Claude, TheHoneyPump would chime in. He lives in Canada where the temperature is critical. Mr Claude comes form a 7th generation family of commercial beekeepers, whose family runs thousands of commercial bee hives, producing thousand of pounds of wax per year, let alone all the honey. Being a humble man with a good heart, he may never tell you the above. He is very well educated and knows what he is talking about on the subject of bees as well as other subjects, being totally confident in the information he gives. Who better to receive information than folks whose families make their livelihood from bees? What better men than Michael Palmer, Ian Steppler and Claude P. along with others, to receive advise for your question, especially being they are possibly from a colder climate than yours? It is my opinion, to have the privilege to talk to, an receive advise from a person whose family makes a living with bees is a honor within itself. And lets not forget Michale Bush. Mr Bush comes from a very cold area also. Also, keep in mind no two people agree on everything, receive with graciousness and appreciation and they may very well chime in?
Phillip

https://youtu.be/ZhLX9IndROI

Ben - I wish we had a like button. So we don?t always have to quote to compliment , but reading that fills my soul.
7 generations of anything impressed me. Losing my dad at 2 and having no male influence, I really feel special now to receive HP advice.
Please accept all of your blessings as well - peace

[Ben Framed]

Salty, I am sorry you lost your dad at such a young age and tender age, or any age for that matter. But especially at your age. I want to say God Bless you Salty.
Yes Sir, we are fortunate to have Mr Claude here as well as many others form all over the world, form many walks of life, here at Beemaster. We have a very diverse group of folks, and, in my opinion the top of the line moderator in Jim.  I have said it before and I will say it again, we are fortunate here, Let me add, we are blessed here! Thanks, Salty
Quoting my friend Mr Van, Blessings
Phillip

[Donovan J]

I would like to have 4 colonies going into the winter and was wondering if its too late to do hive splits right now. I'm planning on doing a walk away split with Hive 2. Any thoughts?

As Ace pointed out in another topic, I am from North Mississippi and David is from Georgia. It was easy for me to overwinter 5 late season splits last fall, after talking to him on the phone, (David), and taking his good advice I added mated queens . Our temperatures are pretty cold here. Reaching well below freezing here in North Mississippi several times during the winter months. Usually in the 20's many days and nights sometimes in the single digits, but not often in the single digits, (when the jet stream dips this far).  The following video is educational by David at Barnyard Bees. I am sure that there are others here which may be able to help you, who may live in colder areas than David, closer to the environment in which you live.  I will post the video just the same as it is educational. I would also recommend the videos featuring Michael Palmer on the subject of a sustainable apiary in the far North, and overwintering nucleus colonies. It would also be good if Mr Claude, TheHoneyPump would chime in. He lives in Canada where the temperature is critical. Mr Claude comes form a 7th generation family of commercial beekeepers, whose family runs thousands of commercial bee hives, producing thousand of pounds of wax per year, let alone all the honey. Being a humble man with a good heart, he may never tell you the above. He is very well educated and knows what he is talking about on the subject of bees as well as other subjects, being totally confident in the information he gives. Who better to receive information than folks whose families make their livelihood from bees? What better men than Michael Palmer, Ian Steppler and Claude P. along with others, to receive advise for your question, especially being they are possibly from a colder climate than yours? It is my opinion, to have the privilege to talk to, an receive advise from a person whose family makes a living with bees is a honor within itself. And lets not forget Michale Bush. Mr Bush comes from a very cold area also. Also, keep in mind no two people agree on everything, receive with graciousness and appreciation and they may very well chime in?
Phillip

https://youtu.be/ZhLX9IndROI

Thank you very much for the video. I will do my split on Sunday once I get back from a little vacation. There should be a laying queen by late-August and she will have about a month to build up for the winter. We have mild winters with little snow if any and a handful of days that go below freezing. I feel confident that the split will survive the winter.

[Ben Framed]

I would like to have 4 colonies going into the winter and was wondering if its too late to do hive splits right now. I'm planning on doing a walk away split with Hive 2. Any thoughts?

As Ace pointed out in another topic, I am from North Mississippi and David is from Georgia. It was easy for me to overwinter 5 late season splits last fall, after talking to him on the phone, (David), and taking his good advice I added mated queens . Our temperatures are pretty cold here. Reaching well below freezing here in North Mississippi several times during the winter months. Usually in the 20's many days and nights sometimes in the single digits, but not often in the single digits, (when the jet stream dips this far).  The following video is educational by David at Barnyard Bees. I am sure that there are others here which may be able to help you, who may live in colder areas than David, closer to the environment in which you live.  I will post the video just the same as it is educational. I would also recommend the videos featuring Michael Palmer on the subject of a sustainable apiary in the far North, and overwintering nucleus colonies. It would also be good if Mr Claude, TheHoneyPump would chime in. He lives in Canada where the temperature is critical. Mr Claude comes form a 7th generation family of commercial beekeepers, whose family runs thousands of commercial bee hives, producing thousand of pounds of wax per year, let alone all the honey. Being a humble man with a good heart, he may never tell you the above. He is very well educated and knows what he is talking about on the subject of bees as well as other subjects, being totally confident in the information he gives. Who better to receive information than folks whose families make their livelihood from bees? What better men than Michael Palmer, Ian Steppler and Claude P. along with others, to receive advise for your question, especially being they are possibly from a colder climate than yours? It is my opinion, to have the privilege to talk to, an receive advise from a person whose family makes a living with bees is a honor within itself. And lets not forget Michale Bush. Mr Bush comes from a very cold area also. Also, keep in mind no two people agree on everything, receive with graciousness and appreciation and they may very well chime in?
Phillip

https://youtu.be/ZhLX9IndROI

Thank you very much for the video. I will do my split on Sunday once I get back from a little vacation. There should be a laying queen by late-August and she will have about a month to build up for the winter. We have mild winters with little snow if any and a handful of days that go below freezing. I feel confident that the split will survive the winter.

The way to build these up quickly and getting ready for winter is feed, feed, feed, both pollen substitute along with sugar syrup. they need both to build up brood. Late season is a critical time and this is a MUST.  Ultra Bee is a great pollen sub. I highly recommend it. Also, Varroa mite control is a must! David, Joe May, and Don Kuchenmeister will explain these to you and how to mix their fall build up formula. Check out their videos, read the comment section. Ask questions in the comment section. You will learn much there. Each man has a slightly different ingredient level for their build up formula, I rounded off from the average of the three. While doing late splits everything must be considered and done properly, and done well , there is not room for error this time of year, as time is short. I also recommend that you promptly order mated queens, this late considering you area, if your queens do not come back properly mated in an adequate time frame. When do you usually receive your first frost in your area?  In my case, I did all the above and was very happy. I would actually feel better if you would do that now, (order mated queens and then do your splits), and not wait considering your location. Study and do yourself and your bees justice. Wishing you the best!
Phillip

[Ben Framed]

 Let me add another food for thought, if you will go back last year. Live Oak made a very good post here on top of feeding sugar during the winter months.  I will be tied up most of the day today with business and will not be able to look this up for you. It should be easy to find if you go back to his profile and check out his post. He does mention adding vinegar to his mixture which I did not do. Because I was already feeding the Brood building formula mentioned in my last post. Which this combination worked well for me.
Phillip

[Nock]

Is it better to split now or in the spring?

[Hethen57]

Late summer and spring splits have different purposes.  Late summer splits give a brood break which is helpful in knocking back the Varroa and provide additional colonies to absorb some winter losses, but they may have trouble building up numbers sufficient to overwinter (particularly if you are trying to make your own queen and are waiting 30 days for new eggs... it puts you almost on September where many parts of the country are starting to get cold) and, depending upon where you live, they may not be able to stock away enough stores to survive winter without lots of feeding.  Spring splits will deter natural swarming tendency, build quickly with the flow and have high likelihood of success, provided it is warm enough to have sufficient drones for mating...it is almost a given that you will do them if your colonies successfully overwintered.

I'm sure it is possible to do a walk-away at this time of year, but I just ordered queens for my splits this weekend.  This was the strong recommendation of a local expert beek who has been keeping bees in my area successfully for 30 something years.

[TheHoneyPump]

When is too early or too late is entirely regional climate dependent and which queening method being used.  I will just leave this here for your consideration as you look at your personal bee calendar.

WAS (Walk Away Split) (weather and drone population dependent)
24 - 28 days to eggs
45 - 49 days to first brood emerging

Ripe Queen Cell (weather and drone population dependent)
9 - 16 days to eggs
30 - 37 days to first brood emerging

Mated Queen Intro. (weather/drone independent)
7 days to eggs
28 days to first brood emerging

All of the above assumes the queen mating or queen introduction are successful. Dates are never exact with bees as there are so many natural factors.  If she fails, the entire hive/split fails.  There is no try-again in late season. If it fails, recombine promptly.

You want the mass of -winter bees- to begin emerging nearly a month before you will be tucking them in for winter. She needs time to flip the nest, so to speak. Time it so those winter bees expectations are well into the second+ brood cycle of a late season split. Go 16+ days beyond when her very first brood should be emerging.

Get out a calendar and work backwards from your tuck-in date along with the queen method options above to determine when is the latest you have to make your splits to be successful.  As example, in my climate, I tuck-in just before Halloween. Therefore I would not make a split or new hive startup after July 28 with a carefully duly prepared ripe cell nor beyond Aug 4 with a mated queen.  ( I never ever do a WAS. )

Folks should be hesitant to give anything more specific.  Your climatic region and natural factors affect the chances of success.

Everything else already said/written about the importance of resources (feed) is crucial. Bees do not build strength in numbers without having resources in excess. Be prepared to feed syrup and protein supplements on any new startup regardless of the foraging conditions. The reason is that startup/split will have a finite and declining foraging workforce until 2 weeks post emergence of the new brood. It does not matter how many flowers are out there if the hive does not have enough bees of the right age to go out to get it, and them bring it back in enough excess to build more population.  That nice strong split made will stagnate or decline.  Keep an eye on the amount of excess nectar coming into the combs.  As well as the amount of jelly the larvae are being fed.  If the larvae are not swimming and floating around in copious amounts of jelly - FEED.


Hope that helps!


( PS:  I am no expert. Just here periodically to share pertinent experience based knowledge which works for me. Take it if you find it useful, leave it if you do not. The hope is to fill in gaps where I can with least amount of confusion/conflict possible.  The ultimate goal is somehow along the way to help save some bees from the antics of arguably their most disruptive pest - me/you the beekeeper. )

[Ben Framed]

Thank you Mr Claude, your above logic is why I strongly recommended mated queens this late in the season as time is short and there is no room for errors.
Phillip

[Ben Framed]

Is it better to split now or in the spring?

Nock, my situation was not a ?I want to split? situation last fall. My hive got knocked over and I thought th Queen was lost. (Dead) I ordered 4 with the hope that at least one would make it going into spring. Upon finding the original queen after receiving the four mated queens. I went ahead and split making five nucs. To my delight, all not only survived, but prospered. I learned a lot from that. The late season advantage for me was the STRONG nucs coming out of spring . Had I not split these,  through out this season,  no telling how much honey they might have made individually. So, in my opinion, if your climate will allow, late season is a good choice IF AND ONLY IF a person is wiling to do what it takes to give the bees tools they need to make it through the winter. Mr.Clauds chart is the place to start.
Phillip

[Bob Wilson]

HoneyPump,
Excellent information. So I need to find out when the "tuck-in date" is here in central Georgia.
I am trying to visit a local bee association. The closest is about half an hour away, but will at least put me in contact with some seasoned beekeepers around this area. Everyone I know are new beeks like me.

[Oldbeavo]

With beekeeping there are guide lines, no rules, the bees make the rules and nature guides the bees decisions.
Working with "so called" dates can come undone with nature not adhering to these dates.
We had a warm Autumn this year and expected queens to keep laying deep into Autumn but for what ever reason they slowed down and back filled the brood with honey.
If I had the choice of taking 2 strong hives into winter or 4 hives that require support then I would take the two and split them in Spring.

[Nock]

What weather conditions are you looking for as your ?tuck in?. Thanks for info. I?d like to split my two hives now but I?m still hoping for some honey this year. Thanks for info.

[Donovan J]

I would like to have 4 colonies going into the winter and was wondering if its too late to do hive splits right now. I'm planning on doing a walk away split with Hive 2. Any thoughts?

As Ace pointed out in another topic, I am from North Mississippi and David is from Georgia. It was easy for me to overwinter 5 late season splits last fall, after talking to him on the phone, (David), and taking his good advice I added mated queens . Our temperatures are pretty cold here. Reaching well below freezing here in North Mississippi several times during the winter months. Usually in the 20's many days and nights sometimes in the single digits, but not often in the single digits, (when the jet stream dips this far).  The following video is educational by David at Barnyard Bees. I am sure that there are others here which may be able to help you, who may live in colder areas than David, closer to the environment in which you live.  I will post the video just the same as it is educational. I would also recommend the videos featuring Michael Palmer on the subject of a sustainable apiary in the far North, and overwintering nucleus colonies. It would also be good if Mr Claude, TheHoneyPump would chime in. He lives in Canada where the temperature is critical. Mr Claude comes form a 7th generation family of commercial beekeepers, whose family runs thousands of commercial bee hives, producing thousand of pounds of wax per year, let alone all the honey. Being a humble man with a good heart, he may never tell you the above. He is very well educated and knows what he is talking about on the subject of bees as well as other subjects, being totally confident in the information he gives. Who better to receive information than folks whose families make their livelihood from bees? What better men than Michael Palmer, Ian Steppler and Claude P. along with others, to receive advise for your question, especially being they are possibly from a colder climate than yours? It is my opinion, to have the privilege to talk to, an receive advise from a person whose family makes a living with bees is a honor within itself. And lets not forget Michale Bush. Mr Bush comes from a very cold area also. Also, keep in mind no two people agree on everything, receive with graciousness and appreciation and they may very well chime in?
Phillip

https://youtu.be/ZhLX9IndROI

Thank you very much for the video. I will do my split on Sunday once I get back from a little vacation. There should be a laying queen by late-August and she will have about a month to build up for the winter. We have mild winters with little snow if any and a handful of days that go below freezing. I feel confident that the split will survive the winter.

The way to build these up quickly and getting ready for winter is feed, feed, feed, both pollen substitute along with sugar syrup. they need both to build up brood. Late season is a critical time and this is a MUST.  Ultra Bee is a great pollen sub. I highly recommend it. Also, Varroa mite control is a must! David, Joe May, and Don Kuchenmeister will explain these to you and how to mix their fall build up formula. Check out their videos, read the comment section. Ask questions in the comment section. You will learn much there. Each man has a slightly different ingredient level for their build up formula, I rounded off from the average of the three. While doing late splits everything must be considered and done properly, and done well , there is not room for error this time of year, as time is short. I also recommend that you promptly order mated queens, this late considering you area, if your queens do not come back properly mated in an adequate time frame. When do you usually receive your first frost in your area?  In my case, I did all the above and was very happy. I would actually feel better if you would do that now, (order mated queens and then do your splits), and not wait considering your location. Study and do yourself and your bees justice. Wishing you the best!
Phillip

Yes I plan on feeding like there's no tomorrow. I also plan on treating all my hives as I have seen varroa here and there on some bees.

[Donovan J]

When is too early or too late is entirely regional climate dependent and which queening method being used.  I will just leave this here for your consideration as you look at your personal bee calendar.

WAS (Walk Away Split) (weather and drone population dependent)
24 - 28 days to eggs
45 - 49 days to first brood emerging

Ripe Queen Cell (weather and drone population dependent)
9 - 16 days to eggs
30 - 37 days to first brood emerging

Mated Queen Intro. (weather/drone independent)
7 days to eggs
28 days to first brood emerging

All of the above assumes the queen mating or queen introduction are successful. Dates are never exact with bees as there are so many natural factors.  If she fails, the entire hive/split fails.  There is no try-again in late season. If it fails, recombine promptly.

You want the mass of -winter bees- to begin emerging nearly a month before you will be tucking them in for winter. She needs time to flip the nest, so to speak. Time it so those winter bees expectations are well into the second+ brood cycle of a late season split. Go 16+ days beyond when her very first brood should be emerging.

Get out a calendar and work backwards from your tuck-in date along with the queen method options above to determine when is the latest you have to make your splits to be successful.  As example, in my climate, I tuck-in just before Halloween. Therefore I would not make a split or new hive startup after July 28 with a carefully duly prepared ripe cell nor beyond Aug 4 with a mated queen.  ( I never ever do a WAS. )

Folks should be hesitant to give anything more specific.  Your climatic region and natural factors affect the chances of success.

Everything else already said/written about the importance of resources (feed) is crucial. Bees do not build strength in numbers without having resources in excess. Be prepared to feed syrup and protein supplements on any new startup regardless of the foraging conditions. The reason is that startup/split will have a finite and declining foraging workforce until 2 weeks post emergence of the new brood. It does not matter how many flowers are out there if the hive does not have enough bees of the right age to go out to get it, and them bring it back in enough excess to build more population.  That nice strong split made will stagnate or decline.  Keep an eye on the amount of excess nectar coming into the combs.  As well as the amount of jelly the larvae are being fed.  If the larvae are not swimming and floating around in copious amounts of jelly - FEED.


Hope that helps!


( PS:  I am no expert. Just here periodically to share pertinent experience based knowledge which works for me. Take it if you find it useful, leave it if you do not. The hope is to fill in gaps where I can with least amount of confusion/conflict possible.  The ultimate goal is somehow along the way to help save some bees from the antics of arguably their most disruptive pest - me/you the beekeeper. )

With this logic that will put the first brood emerging in early to mid September which is perfect timing for the winter buildup. I'm just gonna feed 1:1 for now and will switch over to 2:1 once fall starts closing in.

[Ben Framed]

With beekeeping there are guide lines, no rules, the bees make the rules and nature guides the bees decisions.
Working with "so called" dates can come undone with nature not adhering to these dates.
We had a warm Autumn this year and expected queens to keep laying deep into Autumn but for what ever reason they slowed down and back filled the brood with honey.
If I had the choice of taking 2 strong hives into winter or 4 hives that require support then I would take the two and split them in Spring.

Good points Oldbeavo.

[cao]

If I had the choice of taking 2 strong hives into winter or 4 hives that require support then I would take the two and split them in Spring.

Agree completely. 

TheHoneyPump gave some good guidelines and times for splitting.  I have decided over the last several years that for me the cutoff date for splits with queen cells is the first of July.  It just takes too much effort to get them to build up after that date.  July is when I start thinking what each hive needs for winter.

[TheFuzz]

In that video he mentions placing hives away from the host hive.

In the past I've split a hive and placed it right next to the mother hive. Is this not an effective way of going about doing it? Will the bees likely just go back into their mother hive?