Requeening: finger test question

rgennaro · July 31, 2019, 11:37:34 AM

Yesterday the new queen came in and I put her in the small hive with the swarm. Since the day before they had already built two new cups which I removed. I looked again for the current queen and could not really find her. So I put the queen in there in her cage, and went back a couple of hours later to do a finger test. The bees moved out of the way, I think. It's hard for me to tell exactly what moving out of the way means :)

I looked online for videos and I could only find videos of the queen being accepted, not of the queens being rejected. I wanted to check my bees behavior against the videos.

I'll check again later today and try to do a video. But assuming they are accepting her, can I poke a hole in the candy sooner than 3 days? Or even just open the cage and release her?

thanks.

CoolBees · July 31, 2019, 12:50:32 PM

Jim (sawdstmaker) posted a video around here somewhere that showed the difference between an accepted queen, and one that wasn't. I'm not sure where it is though.

Hethen57 · July 31, 2019, 01:24:00 PM

It should be fairly obvious, in the "not accepted" situation they will be in fighting mode, clinging to the cage, acting all agitated and trying to "ball" or smother the intruder, and in the "accepted" situation they will be interested in her, some covering the cage, you should be able to push them out of the way but they go right back, appearing more content that they have a queen and wanting to take care of her. It is kind of a judgment call. I made some splits Saturday afternoon and put the cages in on Sunday morning. I could pretty quickly tell that they were accepting of the new queens, no more queenless roar or agitation, and since the queens had been shipped the prior Wednesday and took an extra few days to get delivered (thanks Priority Mail), I wanted to get them laying as quickly as possible. On Monday morning, everything seemed good and I manually released the queens and all seemed well. They leisurely walked into the hive and across the brood frames and none of the bees jumped on them or really even paid any attention to them. Had they attacked and began to ball the queen, I would have re-captured the queen, but when they are accepted, the hive hardly pays any attention to the queen when she is first released. I imagine she gets in there and fairly quickly gets set up with her attendants and begins to lay.

TheHoneyPump · July 31, 2019, 01:36:46 PM

There could be lots of variable experience expressed on this topic. Queen introduction is one of those beekeeping things that is discussed at length and written about in reams. Lots of ways to doing it. Lots of successes - Lots of failures.

I will say up front that when introducing queens, the saying applies: You cannot (should not) rush a good thing.
...., it definitely does not have to be a long drawn out process either!

Know right off the bat that candy release rate is variable and unpredictable. Some candy is soft, some hard. Some hives get on it and rip it up feverishly, some lallygag their way through it. My point on this is never rely on the candy as your time release for for queen acceptance. Keep the cork or tape over the candy for the time they need to become receptive to the queen. Sometimes that is less than an hour, sometimes it is up to a week. Acceptance rate depends heavily on the QR/QL condition of the hive when the queen cage is first introduced and that can change as the days go by, for better or for worse for her if the bees do or do not have queen cells on the go.

My advice is that the finger test helps you as an indicator of acceptance not as a decision maker. Yet, I suppose it really depends on what your tolerance level is for loosing the queen. Let her out too soon, she may be dead shortly after you have closed up the hive and walked away. Wait longer and the only thing lost is a couple-three extra days of egg-laying time. Wait too long after she is out and laying before checking on her and she may be dead and replaced by a newly emerged rogue virgin.

Below is general guide that I include with queens I have sold or given to folks.
Keep the cage corked or taped for 3 days. At 3 days inspect. Use no smoke or as little smoke as possible, this is important so as to not mask the bees behaviour by their response to smoke:
Check the cage first. Calmly, slowly, and gently remove the cage.
1) observe the bees behaviour towards the queen cage. The real test is observation. Use your eyes first. The finger test helps to confirm what you are seeing. Look for following signs:
-- Receptive/Accepting: The bees are calm and loosely walking about the cage, not stacked or packed on it, some sticking tongues through the cage, nasonov fanning, generally happy beehaviour. Go ahead and remove the tape/cork. (If you are a risk taker, you might consider direct releasing her at this point.) Put the cage back in and come back in 3 days to see that she is out. Once the cork/tape is removed, she may be out in less than an hour or a couple days. Depends on the hive, as said above.
-- Defensive/notReady: The bees are frantic about the cage. Lots of buzzing and fussing about the cage and the frames in general. Tight mass of bees on the cage. Biting or hunching over on the cage. Leave the tape/cork on! Search the hive for evidence of cells or another queen. Come back in another 3 days and check behaviour again.
2) Go ahead and add smoke after finished checking the cage. Go through and inspect the hive thoroughly for any evidence of queen cells or recently emerged virgin queen. Seek and destroy all. If any such things are found, keep the tape/cork on for another 3 days.
3) After the queen is out, check the hive between 3 and 7 day intervals, no longer than that. What you are looking for are supercedure or emergency cells. Destroy them, this helps eliminate potential for rogue virgins to help the new queen establish her reign of totality. Do this for 3 weeks.

If you have a high tolerance for a failure, such as have extra queens in your pocket, you may go ahead to try and rush it such as direct releasing her at day 3 or sooner. It may work. Lots of times it does, lots of times it does not. Some hives will accept a new queen within an hour of first presenting the cage to them. Some will never accept a particularly queen. What if yours is one of the cases where it does not. What is your plan B? Following the 3 day guide given is her great chances at getting established safely. Ultimately, do what you will and we wish for her all the best successes.

PS: If you have only one or few hives to requeen and you want her established the fastest way possible then look into using the push in cage method instead.

Hope that helps!

van from Arkansas · July 31, 2019, 03:36:45 PM

HP, man ol man, when you cover a topic you are complete, through, precise, detailed. You spent some time on this and your time greatly helps a lot of beeks. My thanks.

Brother Adam suggested 50% of queens are lost in introductions, fifty percent.
Blessings
Van

TheHoneyPump · July 31, 2019, 05:33:12 PM

The important, critical, ones Van. Yes. ;)

Ben Framed · July 31, 2019, 09:01:55 PM

As you said HP, there are many ways of doing this, your advise is good solid advise and appreciated. I know a fellow who introduces his queens immediately, and says he has never lost a queen in this manner, and has been beekeeping for several decades. I will describe. What he mixes Honey Bee Healthy with sugar water. Just enough HBH to give off a good scent. He then sprays the caged queen lightly. This does two things, mask her scent and reduces the chance of her flying away. He also sprays the bees inside the hive lightly, and between the frames. Then simply releases the queen onto the top bars of the brood chamber. As I said, he has never lost a queen in this manner. Sounds bold and gutsy. Have you heard of this manner of introduction?
Phillip

rgennaro · August 01, 2019, 07:28:59 AM

Thanks THP, that?s very informative and I am so glad to be on this board for such advice. I guess I was a risk taker, and I might have paid for it (more the queen really...)

Both the visual observation (bees calm around the cage, no ball of bees, bees sticking their tongue rather than their stinger on the cage ... the only thing I didn?t see was fanning) and the finger test made me believe that the queen had been accepted. I should have left them alone and eat the candy for a slower release. Instead I use a nail to remove some though not all of the candy.

I wanted to watch the queen come out of the cage to see if she?d be attacked and in that case rescue her (a risky proposition esp for a newbeek like me) but my family needed me back in the house so I closed up and walked away. Few hours later went back in to check and she was gone ... not in the cage nor on the frames. This is a marked queen so I should have seen her. I?ll check again today but I am not hopeful.

This whole swarm experience has been a lesson in the virtues of patience when it comes to beekeeping.

BeeMaster2 · August 01, 2019, 08:22:08 AM

Here is the link to the thread that has the videos of doing the finger test.
It is a sticky thread, stays on top of the board. It is in the Queen Rearing board.

https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=52028.0

Jim Altmiller

BeeMaster2 · August 01, 2019, 08:26:34 AM

Quote from: Ben Framed on July 31, 2019, 09:01:55 PM
As you said HP, there are many ways of doing this, your advise is good solid advise and appreciated. I know a fellow who introduces his queens immediately, and says he has never lost a queen in this manner, and has been beekeeping for several decades. I will describe. What he mixes Honey Bee Healthy with sugar water. Just enough HBH to give off a good scent. He then sprays the caged queen lightly. This does two things, mask her scent and reduces the chance of her flying away. He also sprays the bees inside the hive lightly, and between the frames. Then simply releases the queen onto the top bars of the brood chamber. As I said, he has never lost a queen in this manner. Sounds bold and gutsy. Have you heard of this manner of introduction?
Phillip

Ben,
If you check with this Beek, I would bet that he makes sure that he has removed the queen and all cells before introducing the new queen.
I have done the same, without the spray, many times but you have to bee certain that the hive is queen less for at least an hour or more before you do this. Usually the hive was queen less over night.
Jim Altmiller

CoolBees · August 01, 2019, 01:39:28 PM

Quote from: sawdstmakr on August 01, 2019, 08:22:08 AM
Here is the link to the thread that has the videos of doing the finger test.
It is a sticky thread, stays on top of the board. It is in the Queen Rearing board.

https://beemaster.com/forum/index.php?topic=52028.0

Jim Altmiller

Thank you for providing the link Jim. I knew it was around here somewhere.

Ben Framed · August 01, 2019, 01:45:45 PM

Quote from: sawdstmakr on August 01, 2019, 08:26:34 AM
Quote from: Ben Framed on July 31, 2019, 09:01:55 PM
As you said HP, there are many ways of doing this, your advise is good solid advise and appreciated. I know a fellow who introduces his queens immediately, and says he has never lost a queen in this manner, and has been beekeeping for several decades. I will describe. What he mixes Honey Bee Healthy with sugar water. Just enough HBH to give off a good scent. He then sprays the caged queen lightly. This does two things, mask her scent and reduces the chance of her flying away. He also sprays the bees inside the hive lightly, and between the frames. Then simply releases the queen onto the top bars of the brood chamber. As I said, he has never lost a queen in this manner. Sounds bold and gutsy. Have you heard of this manner of introduction?
Phillip

Ben,
If you check with this Beek, I would bet that he makes sure that he has removed the queen and all cells before introducing the new queen.
I have done the same, without the spray, many times but you have to bee certain that the hive is queen less for at least an hour or more before you do this. Usually the hive was queen less over night.
Jim Altmiller

No doubt about that Jim. Doesn't the hive always need to have the queen removed for a certain amount of time before introducing a new queen? Remember I am still learning.

Ben Framed · August 01, 2019, 02:17:42 PM

Whoops, I was mistaken. I just watched one of the videos again and Tim did indeed use the above method described, except he did not spray the whole hive, only in between the fames she went into. He did not wait an hour after removing the old queen, at least he did not mention it in this video. But he did remove her and placed her in a nuc. Then walked back and re-introduced a new queen.
Start at 24 minutes and 55 seconds. He has many videos and has described this at other times also if I remember correctly. He is an older gentleman and loves to tell jokes. He tells one after this video.

https://youtu.be/mi10X0FRjbE

Ben Framed · August 03, 2019, 09:42:37 AM

Quote from: rgennaro on July 31, 2019, 11:37:34 AM
Yesterday the new queen came in and I put her in the small hive with the swarm. Since the day before they had already built two new cups which I removed. I looked again for the current queen and could not really find her. So I put the queen in there in her cage, and went back a couple of hours later to do a finger test. The bees moved out of the way, I think. It's hard for me to tell exactly what moving out of the way means :)

I looked online for videos and I could only find videos of the queen being accepted, not of the queens being rejected. I wanted to check my bees behavior against the videos.

I'll check again later today and try to do a video. But assuming they are accepting her, can I poke a hole in the candy sooner than 3 days? Or even just open the cage and release her?

thanks.

rgennaro, What did you do? How did things turn out?

rgennaro · August 04, 2019, 09:09:13 AM

Can?t find her. I posted in another thread that I also think I heard a queen piping. So I am waiting to see what develops.