Lethargic Hive

The15thMember · April 27, 2020, 05:45:46 PM

I caught a swarm on 4/22 at about 4:00 in the afternoon. I'm not sure if they came from one of my hives or not. My sister called me outside because a lot of bees were flying and she was right, but this didn't look like a swarm at first glance to me. The bees were flying very casually and it took them about 10 minutes to even begin to cluster and it took them another 10 for all the bees to land. They were literally 1 ft. off the ground, so I got them and put them in a hive with a frame of brood to help convince them to stay. They were incredibly calm, almost silent for basically the entire process.

They haven't been very active compared to the other hives, and today I noticed that there were bees hanging out at the entrance but not doing anything. They seemed very lethargic and were just sort of walking slowly around, almost like they were cold, which isn't possible because it's almost 70 here today. There are also a lot of spots of bee poop on the exterior of the hive. I opened them up to see what's going on. They haven't done anything in the hive, haven't drawn comb, haven't stored anything, nothing. There are eggs, but no larvae, and I did not see a queen, although I could have missed her, since the bees seemed keen on piling on top of each other instead of spreading around. The bees themselves didn't appear to have anything wrong with them, I didn't see any varroa (although there is some frass in the pictures of the combs), and the bees are fuzzy and dry. They were acting very lethargic however, although they did perk up a little after I'd had the hive open for a bit, but they were not acting normal. There were about 20-30 dead bees on the bottom board that hadn't been removed. The frame of brood I put in doesn't seem to have come to term well. There are dead pupae and older larvae and some of the pupae have been pulled, although to my eye at least, the brood doesn't look diseased; all of them are white and the dead remains in the cells aren't weird in any way (i.e. they are not mummified and they don't rope or anything when I pull the contents out with a stick). The hive is out of food, so I'll put some sugar syrup on them, and maybe that will help. What do you think is going on?

The15thMember · April 27, 2020, 05:47:32 PM

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The15thMember · April 27, 2020, 05:48:37 PM

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The15thMember · April 27, 2020, 05:49:28 PM

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AR Beekeeper · April 27, 2020, 09:54:04 PM

The colony is suffering from starvation and a severe virus problem. If there is no food in the colony the bees will eat the larvae, and when you see pupa being uncapped and removed or chewed out of the cell, it is because they are also being eaten, or they have died from a virus.

When you see pupa being uncapped in the pink eyed stage of development they died from a virus or from being chilled due to insufficient adults to warm them during cold periods.

van from Arkansas · April 27, 2020, 10:49:56 PM

Member in the pics I see a lot of pin holes and varroa scat. As my friend AR point out there is a problem, I see no food. One problem seen in the pics is Varroa. Address the mites.

If these bees are from a swarm it may have really been an abscond. Can?t say for sure but consider.

Is there a unpleasant smell with this hive? The brood is dying? Most bees in the pics are old bees with little hair on the thorax. I could not find a single fuzzy, just hatched bee.

Nock · April 28, 2020, 12:00:34 AM

Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 27, 2020, 10:49:56 PM
Member in the pics I see a lot of pin holes and varroa scat. As my friend AR point out there is a problem, I see no food. One problem seen in the pics is Varroa. Address the mites.

If these bees are from a swarm it may have really been an abscond. Can?t say for sure but consider.

Is there a unpleasant smell with this hive? The brood is dying? Most bees in the pics are old bees with little hair on the thorax. I could not find a single fuzzy, just hatched bee.

Van the pin holes stood out to me as well. Are you saying that?s varroa doing that? I didn?t see any on the bees.

The15thMember · April 28, 2020, 12:21:19 AM

Quote from: AR Beekeeper on April 27, 2020, 09:54:04 PM
The colony is suffering from starvation and a severe virus problem. If there is no food in the colony the bees will eat the larvae, and when you see pupa being uncapped and removed or chewed out of the cell, it is because they are also being eaten, or they have died from a virus.

When you see pupa being uncapped in the pink eyed stage of development they died from a virus or from being chilled due to insufficient adults to warm them during cold periods.

It's quite possible the adult bees are eating them, since some were missing pieces, although I suppose that could just be from them not removing them whole.

Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 27, 2020, 10:49:56 PM
Member in the pics I see a lot of pin holes and varroa scat. As my friend AR point out there is a problem, I see no food. One problem seen in the pics is Varroa. Address the mites.

If these bees are from a swarm it may have really been an abscond. Can?t say for sure but consider.

Is there a unpleasant smell with this hive? The brood is dying? Most bees in the pics are old bees with little hair on the thorax. I could not find a single fuzzy, just hatched bee.

I didn't specifically notice an unpleasant smell, so I can't say for sure if the all brood is dying, but at least some of it is definitely not hatching well. The question is why. Are the bees pulling the pupa out of starvation or because they know there's a problem? Perhaps a sugar roll will help to enlighten the situation. I'll try to do a sugar roll tomorrow and see what the mite count is. I too noticed the pinholes.

Quote from: Nock on April 28, 2020, 12:00:34 AM
Van the pin holes stood out to me as well. Are you saying that?s varroa doing that? I didn?t see any on the bees.

Yes, the mites sometimes chew pinholes to get out of the capped brood. At any given time the majority of the mites are in the brood, and the ones on the bees are difficult to spot, so just because we don't see any doesn't mean we don't have a problem here, especially with a colony this small and weak.

van from Arkansas · April 28, 2020, 09:42:24 AM

I don?t think the mites can thew thur wax. The body parts of the mite are to soft to chew and they have no teeth or mandibles as they are called in insects.

The pin holes are made by hygenic nurse bees that detect a problem with the brood.

The15thMember · April 28, 2020, 10:41:50 AM

Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 28, 2020, 09:42:24 AM
I don?t think the mites can thew thur wax. The body parts of the mite are to soft to Jew and they have no teeth or mandibles as they are called in insects.

The pin holes are made by hygenic nurse bees that detect a problem with the brood.

Thanks for the correction, Van. Apparently the source where I read that was incorrect.

The15thMember · April 28, 2020, 03:44:45 PM

The sugar roll came up with them 3% infested. Is that enough to kill a colony this small? I also uncapped the brood and it definitely did not seem diseased in any way, although some of it was dead. The colony is no better today, in fact it seems to be worse. More dead bees on the bottom board. How do you think I should proceed?

The15thMember · April 28, 2020, 05:23:31 PM

I do have some MAQS around, but after taking stock of the situation, I'm questioning whether this hive is worth the cost of a treatment. There are maybe 2 frames of bees, estimating generously, and I don't know if there is a queen or not, and the bees that are there aren't looking good. I'm thinking it might be best to just euthanize what's left of the colony by putting the frames, bees and all, in the freezer. I'll test my other colonies this weekend to make sure I haven't had a mite explosion. Do you agree?

van from Arkansas · April 28, 2020, 06:43:43 PM

Member, good afternoon; 3% is not bad. Do the bees have food? Agree with you, if the bees are only 2 frames and not foraging then do as you deem best. Culling bees is no fun but improves the stock in the long run.
Cheers,
Van

yes2matt · April 28, 2020, 06:55:41 PM

Quote from: The15thMember on April 28, 2020, 05:23:31 PM
I do have some MAQS around, but after taking stock of the situation, I'm questioning whether this hive is worth the cost of a treatment. There are maybe 2 frames of bees, estimating generously, and I don't know if there is a queen or not, and the bees that are there aren't looking good. I'm thinking it might be best to just euthanize what's left of the colony by putting the frames, bees and all, in the freezer. I'll test my other colonies this weekend to make sure I haven't had a mite explosion. Do you agree?

I caught one just like this in June last year. Advice was to feed both thin syrup and pollen sub. I didn't have any sub but they got some stored pollen and some syrup. Either I was too late or they were too sick and they died.

Swarms draw nice even worker comb, so try to at least preserve that.

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The15thMember · April 28, 2020, 07:10:36 PM

Quote from: van from Arkansas on April 28, 2020, 06:43:43 PM
Member, good afternoon; 3% is not bad. Do the bees have food? Agree with you, if the bees are only 2 frames and not foraging then do as you deem best. Culling bees is no fun but improves the stock in the long run.
Cheers,
Van

I know, 3% didn't seem awful to me either. I gave them a jar of sugar syrup, but they didn't eat any appreciable amount of it, and I figure if it was just starvation, that would have made them perk up pretty fast. I obviously would rather try and help them along if I can, but I'm not sure what else to do for them at this point, and I think the danger they pose to the rest of the apiary may be to great to keep them around any longer, because something is clearly wrong with them, even though we can't seem to nail down what it is.

Quote from: yes2matt on April 28, 2020, 06:55:41 PM
I caught one just like this in June last year. Advice was to feed both thin syrup and pollen sub. I didn't have any sub but they got some stored pollen and some syrup. Either I was too late or they were too sick and they died.

Swarms draw nice even worker comb, so try to at least preserve that.

They didn't even draw any comb. Honestly they were weird from the start. Normally swarms issue at about noon around here and they clustered at around 4:00. And they were flying so lazily and they were so quiet; it was strange. They have never been acting right.

I think I'll give them tonight, and if nothing has changed by tomorrow, that'll be it for them.

TheHoneyPump · April 29, 2020, 01:52:21 AM

All great comments above, covering possible scenarios. In case you missed it; all are pointing to cull them. If you want to salvage anything, cage the queen if they actually have one and set her up in a nuc box with shakes of new bees and no brood from your hives. Give her 3weeks only to prove her metal. As for the caught bees and combs they have touched, am feeling either deep chill coming on or a nice marshmallow roasting fire.

To truly know what they have/had, get in touch with your regional inspector and arrange for samples to be lab tested. The results will be afterfact though as the bees will be long gone. The benefit would be to know if there is risk to your hives contracting whatever they had.

The15thMember · April 29, 2020, 11:45:57 AM

Well, the deed is done. This morning there was only about a tennis ball sized cluster left in there and no queen. I scooped them up into a bag and put them in the freezer along with all the hive components. There were tons of dead bees on the bottom board, which actually makes me hopeful that the bees weren't begging into my other colonies and there wasn't much spread of whatever this was. I'll inspect and mite test all my other hives this weekend if possible. Thanks so much to everyone who responded. It's a sad decision to have to make, but I'm confident I did the right thing, thanks to you all. I'll have to be more careful about weird swarms in the future.

Ben Framed · April 29, 2020, 12:03:23 PM

"To truly know what they have/had, get in touch with your regional inspector and arrange for samples to be lab tested. The results will be afterfact though as the bees will be long gone. The benefit would be to know if there is risk to your hives contracting whatever they had."

Sound Advice.

TheHoneyPump · April 29, 2020, 12:09:46 PM

Good decision.
The freeze will kill the mites. Please note that if viral load was also a factor in their condition, the dead bees in hive and bottom board also should be bagged and burned. So scout and scavanger bees from your hives do not loot the carcasses and bring something home.

The15thMember · April 29, 2020, 12:39:06 PM

Quote from: TheHoneyPump on April 29, 2020, 12:09:46 PM
Good decision.
The freeze will kill the mites. Please note that if viral load was also a factor in their condition, the dead bees in hive and bottom board also should be bagged and burned. So scout and scavanger bees from your hives do not loot the carcasses and bring something home.

I have everything, dead bees and all, in the freezer at the moment. I'll save the dead bees for a fire pit night. Is there anything I could clean the bottom board with to make it safe for reuse, or is it a lost cause? Are the other hive components safe to reuse?