Drones: How are we sure where they come from?

Ben Framed · April 30, 2020, 01:45:20 PM

It has been said and accepted for many years that drones and workers are laid by the same queen, she being able to lay either type egg of her choosing. How do we know this? Could it be possible that the workers draw the drone comb, (and they do), at their choosing. Could it also be possible that the worker lays the drone eggs (unfertilized eggs)? We know they have the capability of laying drone eggs?

In the meantime, Ms Queen goes on about her business of laying fertilized eggs. I realize this is an out of the box of accepted theory thinking, but still a fair question? Why is it accepted that the queen is the drone layer. Could it be the keepers of old were wrong about this? I am sure to ruffle feathers of set in their way beekeepers for even bringing this up but I do believe these are fair questions?

AR Beekeeper · April 30, 2020, 03:46:33 PM

Ben, you have been in self-isolation too long, you need to get out and about.

Ben Framed · April 30, 2020, 03:48:35 PM

Quote from: AR Beekeeper on April 30, 2020, 03:46:33 PM
Ben, you have been in self-isolation too long, you need to get out and about.

Haa Haa you may be right. lol

AR Beekeeper · April 30, 2020, 04:20:56 PM

There have been anatomical studies and observations for the last 180 years that have determined that the queen lays the drone eggs in the colony.

There are a few drones that are produced by workers, but very few. The queen pheromones in a queen-rite colony suppresses the worker ovaries so there are few laying workers in the colony. The ovaries of the laying workers in a colony are not capable of producing the numbers of eggs (less than 100 average worker) required by the colony to produce the drone population produced by the colony. Personal observation of workers laying eggs is very small, I have seen workers laying only 3 time in over 40 years. I have seen queens laying in drone frames hundreds of times.

Ben Framed · April 30, 2020, 04:53:27 PM

Thanks AR for the solid answer. You have satisfied my curiosity question.

Oldbeavo · April 30, 2020, 07:43:44 PM

But all the drones in your hive don't necessarily come from your queen. Drone migrate around and are accepted by the hive.
Are we sure where they come from, maybe not exactly.

van from Arkansas · April 30, 2020, 07:59:44 PM

Yes Beavo, I have black drones that wonder into my all yellow, Italian hives, source unknown. They appear very early in Spring just about the time my queens begin laying. To cold for me to open the hives, but a very small possibility exists that a queen could lay a few drone cells in my hives in early February. Most likely a queen of mine is bred by an occasional Carniolan.

I collected drones for insemination a week ago. Just now getting some mature drones as of 3rd week of April. Cordovan drones need another week at least, Carni, black drones were ready in March.

Phil, you are a natural philosopher, think out of the box you do. Keeps us beeks on our toes, keep chuggen.

Oldbeavo · May 01, 2020, 07:56:08 PM

Our bees go to almonds basically droneless and then after 4-5 weeks we have drones that are multi colored but our drone larvae are not hatched yet.
Because bees go the almond from varied climates especially southern Queensland, equal to Florida in climate, that would have drones in them that migrate to our hives at almonds.
So much for genetic control but on the positive side genetic diversity, I only hope they are good bees.

BeeMaster2 · May 01, 2020, 08:16:10 PM

Phillip,
With an observation hive you can watch your queen laying eggs. The first thing she does is smell a cell to see if it is cleaned out for an egg. Then she measures the size of the cell. If it is the size of a worker cell, she fertilizes the egg before she lays it. If it is a drone size cell, she does not fertilize it.
If it is a queen cup, she fertilizes it.
Hope this helps.
Jim Altmiller

van from Arkansas · May 01, 2020, 09:27:51 PM

Yep, Jim, you hit that nail on the head.

A courious event: One of my Cordovan queens vanished one week after she laid a green drone frame for me. Here is the set up:mid March I placed a waxed out drone frame in a genetic grade hive as I needed the Cordovan drones. I placed the drone frame in the middle of the brood nest. The queen filled the drone frame with eggs. A week later, I check on the drone frame it was full of eggs and also checked on the queen but the queen was superseded. So my question is; did the workers replaced the queen because she laid so many drones? I understand the hive needed workers for the coming flow, but I needed drones.

BTW: I have a lot of Cordovan drones from that queen, she laid both sides of the drone frame for me. May have cost the queen her life. Comments anyone?

AR Beekeeper · May 01, 2020, 11:06:29 PM

Van, check your time line on the replacement queen. If the drone frame was placed in the colony, filled, and the mother queen missing with a daughter queen already replacing her all in 7 days, the daughter's cell would have been started before the drone frame was put into the hive.

Ben Framed · May 01, 2020, 11:09:00 PM

Mr Van, Your question is a very good question. I for one can only guess with my lack of experience. On the outside looking in, what you say sounds logical to me. I think your theory of the superseded queen may be right. If yes or no, we are to sure to find out soon from some of the old pros who may have experienced use with the green drone combs.

Jim, your observation hive has answered multiple questions since I have been here. Yes that helps and coincides with ARs input on this. May I add, you observation hive is really nice and well built. Thank you also for your answer.

Update, AR was Johnny on the spot with good input. He posted as I was posting.

BeeMaster2 · May 01, 2020, 11:20:08 PM

Van,
I seriously doubt it. If the bees do not want drone larvae, they just remove the eggs. Drones are not raised without the worker bees consent.
Something must have happened to the queen.
Jim Altmiller

Acebird · May 04, 2020, 09:10:54 AM

Quote from: van from Arkansas on May 01, 2020, 09:27:51 PM
So my question is; did the workers replaced the queen because she laid so many drones? I understand the hive needed workers for the coming flow, but I needed drones.

The queen does not make any decisions. The colony decides for her. If they prepare worker cells for her and she places drone eggs in it because she is out of bullets then she gets replaced. Workers build the cells and direct the queen.
Van, except in fall the bees always want more drones then we do. If you want drones for mating then convince your neighbor to encourage drones. You don't want drones from your own hives mating with their sisters.

van from Arkansas · May 04, 2020, 10:26:30 AM

Quote from: AR Beekeeper on May 01, 2020, 11:06:29 PM
Van, check your time line on the replacement queen. If the drone frame was placed in the colony, filled, and the mother queen missing with a daughter queen already replacing her all in 7 days, the daughter's cell would have been started before the drone frame was put into the hive.

AR, I was looking at queen cups with eggs some with small amounts of royal jelly which I call queen cells and in the middle of a frame I call supersedure.

van from Arkansas · May 04, 2020, 10:31:47 AM

Quote from: sawdstmakr on May 01, 2020, 11:20:08 PM
Van,
I seriously doubt it. If the bees do not want drone larvae, they just remove the eggs. Drones are not raised without the worker bees consent.
Something must have happened to the queen.
Jim Altmiller

Good point Jim.

van from Arkansas · May 04, 2020, 10:40:41 AM

Quote from: Acebird on May 04, 2020, 09:10:54 AM
Quote from: van from Arkansas on May 01, 2020, 09:27:51 PM
So my question is; did the workers replaced the queen because she laid so many drones? I understand the hive needed workers for the coming flow, but I needed drones.
The queen does not make any decisions. The colony decides for her. If they prepare worker cells for her and she places drone eggs in it because she is out of bullets then she gets replaced. Workers build the cells and direct the queen.
Van, except in fall the bees always want more drones then we do. If you want drones for mating then convince your neighbor to encourage drones. You don't want drones from your own hives mating with their sisters.

Agree with your text Ace. I should explain, the green drone frame was placed in a Cordovan queen hive that was purchased, different genetics that my breeder queen, Alpha. The drones are raised for semin collection for artificial insemination of Cordovan virgin queens that I raise.

So I place green drone frame in hives with different genetics than my grafted queens. I usually destroy Italian capped drone cells. This makes drone collection easier for me as I have to sort the Cordovan drones from the Carni and Italian drones when I am catching mature drones.

TheHoneyPump · May 04, 2020, 04:10:09 PM

One way of knowing where the drones came from is first knowing whether they are yours or not.

van from Arkansas · May 04, 2020, 04:46:24 PM

Yes, HP, very common in Europe to mark drones on a weekly basis to determine age and source. But of course the Cordovan drones are easy to distinguish. As time goes on, my Cordovan drones will breed with other queens, feral or domestic and Cordovan drones not from my apiary will appear. Maybe already!! Ok by me, just so they are Cordovan. BTW there are no registered apiary within two miles from me.

My open mated queens are breed by drones unknown to me. Could be feral, domestic as I have no way of knowing who is breeding who once the queen is airborne. A bit of wild blood is good, prevents inbreeding and sometimes a sassy hive, not nice.