How long to tear down hatched QCs? - update: Mystery solved.

JojoBeeBoy · June 09, 2020, 11:16:51 PM

So yesterday I came in to find a virgin (or likely freshly mated) queen being balled under the entrance of a single deep. This is the hive I mentioned before that came in last spring as a pkg. They were placed on 3-4 frames of drawn comb and probably finished the season with 6-7. I did not feed regularly or really have time for them. This hive did manage to survive winter even under pressure from mites which I only treated with strips, lightly one time in Sept. <Idee say treat you lazy beek>

So I pulled every frame and other than a few small queen cups you would expect there was no sign of a hatched QC, or indication of swarm cells, supercedure etc. How long would it take them to destroy the evidence? I seem to remember hatched cells being intact for a while in the past. I have several other hives and a few nucs but I have closely inspected almost every frame in every hive over the last 3 days.

Did she originate in the hive where she was being executed???

Oldbeavo · June 10, 2020, 06:44:03 AM

May be not, she may be from another hive and returned to the wrong hive.
May be you should audit your other hives/nucs, as maybe one of those may now be queenless.

Ben Framed · June 10, 2020, 07:36:09 AM

Jojo I had something similar happen and posted a topic titled : Mystery Queen. Oldbeavo is right. I was short a queen in one of my other hives. My balled Queen had a stinger hanging out of her thorax (side) area and did not make it. Did you get to your Queen in time to save her?

JojoBeeBoy · June 10, 2020, 10:57:30 AM

No, she was almost dead when I got to her and expired a few minutes later. I will check everyone for eggs or queen in the next couple of days Thanks guys.

I've been actively playing the ramp-up but not swarm game for a few weeks. Especially given the dismal bee weather in May.

JojoBeeBoy · June 14, 2020, 07:29:11 PM

So I had made 3 splits on 5-27 and used Russian queens from Coy's. I wasn't exactly satisfied with the nurse bee population and added nurse bees to all 3 a couple days later. All 3 queens started laying right away. Today, I was in one and found 8 capped queen cells. The attached pic shows a frame that was "notched" but not intentionally. It is a frame of resources with one side drawn unevenly. There were 6 on that frame and 2-3 on a full frame of capped brood.

So she laid at least enough that the capped bees are her offspring then flew (possibly forced out) into another hive 8 feet away.

Has anyone excised queen cells from plastic foundation? Or just watch them closely and catch them before they harden up and kill rivals. What is the correct move here? I have multiple capped cells on 2 frames. Thanks, js

AR Beekeeper · June 14, 2020, 07:51:53 PM

If you are wanting to kill the cell just pinch it off. If you want to save the cell and use it in making another colony, starting 1 or 2 inches above the cell scrape the comb down to the plastic and remove the cell. Be careful not to pinch the cell. With the surplus wax close the hole that is exposing the royal jelly. Use a tooth pick or wooden match pushed through the surplus wax above the cell to attach the cell to a frame of brood.

Ben Framed · June 15, 2020, 09:53:15 AM

Quote from: AR Beekeeper on June 14, 2020, 07:51:53 PM
If you are wanting to kill the cell just pinch it off. If you want to save the cell and use it in making another colony, starting 1 or 2 inches above the cell scrape the comb down to the plastic and remove the cell. Be careful not to pinch the cell. With the surplus wax close the hole that is exposing the royal jelly. Use a tooth pick or wooden match pushed through the surplus wax above the cell to attach the cell to a frame of brood.

Thanks for posting this AR. I have, up until now, been under the impression that queen cells on plastic could not be retrieved. Just for curiosity, can this be done quickly?

AR Beekeeper · June 15, 2020, 10:40:53 AM

How easy it is to remove the queen cell depends on how old the comb is, and if the hive tool has a good edge. Old comb with a large build up of cocoons is not as easy to strip from the plastic as is new comb. The damaged area of the comb is often redrawn as a patch of drone cells, so it depends on which is most valuable to you at the time, new queens or properly drawn comb.

It is my preference to kill extra cells of a frame of plastic foundation and leave the one I have chosen to emerge. If I intend to raise queens by allowing the bees to select larva I prefer to use foundationless frames and cut cells. The foundationless frame is put in the center of the 5 frame nuc that houses the breeder queen I want to raise from. When the breeder lays in the frame, and it is checked daily to determine the age of the eggs, the frame is placed in a queenless colony. The same procedure is used when getting larvae to graft, I try to get larvae 18 to 24 hours old.

JojoBeeBoy · June 15, 2020, 11:15:18 PM

Quote from: AR Beekeeper on June 15, 2020, 10:40:53 AM
How easy it is to remove the queen cell depends on how old the comb is, and if the hive tool has a good edge. Old comb with a large build up of cocoons is not as easy to strip from the plastic as is new comb. The damaged area of the comb is often redrawn as a patch of drone cells, so it depends on which is most valuable to you at the time, new queens or properly drawn comb.

It is my preference to kill extra cells of a frame of plastic foundation and leave the one I have chosen to emerge. If I intend to raise queens by allowing the bees to select larva I prefer to use foundationless frames and cut cells. The foundationless frame is put in the center of the 5 frame nuc that houses the breeder queen I want to raise from. When the breeder lays in the frame, and it is checked daily to determine the age of the eggs, the frame is placed in a queenless colony. The same procedure is used when getting larvae to graft, I try to get larvae 18 to 24 hours old.

That's some very good points. Some of these are not as shapely as others and I'm wondering whether a queen that lays up one frame front and back, a few queen cells on another frame then fails is a set of genes I want to propagate. I guess it could be that she wasn't properly mated.?. I have another Italian queen that can't miss a cell. My intention before this came about was to try grafting some from her. Genetics? Thoughts?

JojoBeeBoy · June 16, 2020, 09:41:09 PM

AR, I used your method and excised 2 decent looking cells and put them in a split I just made with plenty of capped brood, honey, pollen and a couple of light shakes of nurse bees. Also used a Jester nuc box with top feeder and left some pollen patty so I would not have to get in there for a while. If my math is right they will hatch this week. So leave them be for 2-3 weeks??

AR Beekeeper · June 16, 2020, 10:32:09 PM

A virgin queen emerges from her cell on the eighth day after capping, then she matures in the colony for 3 to 5 days after which she will begin to make one to three mating flights. She will usually begin to lay on the second or third day after the last mating flight.

The average time I see eggs in a mating nuc is 10 to 14 days after the queen emerges. This time period depends on good weather and can extend out to 28 days after emerging. As you suggest, 21 days would be a good average length before checking. You will probably have young larvae by then so brood will be easily seen.

If you have hive beetles in your area I would go easy with the pollen patty, they can overwhelm a nuc very quickly. There should be ample pollen being produced without feeding a supplement.

JojoBeeBoy · June 17, 2020, 09:01:04 AM

Thanks AR,

I have been making the patties pretty soft and trying to only give what will get eaten in a week. Right now I only see/crush a beetle now and then, but I have had a double deep totally slimed in the past, probably due to putting a package in a dead-out and giving them too comb/resources to guard or manage. It was gut-wrenching.

While I've done a few splits, this is the first year I've done nucs at all. I will take your advice and ease up on the protein.

Ben Framed · June 17, 2020, 09:07:54 AM

Quote from: JojoBeeBoy on June 17, 2020, 09:01:04 AM
Thanks AR,

I have been making the patties pretty soft and trying to only give what will get eaten in a week. Right now I only see/crush a beetle now and then, but I have had a double deep totally slimed in the past, probably due to putting a package in a dead-out and giving them too comb/resources to guard or manage. It was gut-wrenching.

While I've done a few splits, this is the first year I've done nucs at all. I will take your advice and ease up on the protein.

Some folks cut the patties down to a size where they will be consumed in a couple days then adding, and repeating the process.

Nock · June 17, 2020, 12:32:22 PM

Quote from: Ben Framed on June 17, 2020, 09:07:54 AM
Quote from: JojoBeeBoy on June 17, 2020, 09:01:04 AM
Thanks AR,

I have been making the patties pretty soft and trying to only give what will get eaten in a week. Right now I only see/crush a beetle now and then, but I have had a double deep totally slimed in the past, probably due to putting a package in a dead-out and giving them too comb/resources to guard or manage. It was gut-wrenching.

While I've done a few splits, this is the first year I've done nucs at all. I will take your advice and ease up on the protein.

Some folks cut the patties down to a size where they will be consumed in a couple days then adding, and repeating the process.

That?s what I?d do.