Successfully Overwintered Banked Queens

[Ben Framed]

Can late fall mated queens be successfully banked over winter still be productive?

[Bob Wilson]

I know nothing about whether banked queens drop in health and quality, but I am curious... are you banking queens to get a jump on early sale next spring or just because you have a surplus?

[Ben Framed]

I know nothing about whether banked queens drop in health and quality, but I am curious... are you banking queens to get a jump on early sale next spring or just because you have a surplus?

Not sales, I have never sold a queen. My idea was to supply any of my late winter/early spring hives that might have lost their queen over winter. It sure would be handy to drop a nice mated queen in the box from a bank. (If she is ok health and productive wise).

I wonder if anyone here has given it a try?

[Ben Framed]

Bob I just found this:
I am taking in consideration Mr Bushes location. It gets COLD there..



Michael Bush
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Re: First queen rearing
Reply #7 on: June 23, 2014, 11:31:17 pm
Quote
The best way to get a queen through the winter is in a hive.  Next best is in a nuc.  I have banked a bunch of queens and overwintered them, but it requires a terrarium heater and restocking the bees in the middle of winter from some donor hive... the bees have to be warm enough to not cluster.
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[TheHoneyPump]

My experience;  The best winter banked queens are walking queens, wintered in a single body hive or 5F nuc.
Now having said that; what "winter" means is entirely dependent on where that is and what the winter climate is there and for how long.
So let's retract and back track a little bit. Please be specific about the conditions and timespan.  Not meaning to be picky, but the nature and subjects (queens) of your question demands details to be able to answer and guide accordingly.

[Bob Wilson]

Ben and HP. Pardon my ignorance,
but an overwintered queen in a healthy nuc, or a free walking queen  in a hive, is a good viable hive. If another hive fails, why take her away from her colony and try to introduce her in a possibly problematic colony? Her own hive has a better chance of winter or spring success.

[Ben Framed]

Bob your question is a good honest question. What you say and ask is true and reasonable. Your question can go back to a fellow named Michael Palmer. Mr Palmer is a very well known commercial beekeeper from the far North, who USE to buy many queens in order to sustain his vast Number of Colonies. He learned how to sustain these apiaries in the far North by raising his own Nucleus colonies. This allows him the privilege of replacing any lost queen without having to buy such a vast number. Not only that, any weak colony he might find, he can donate frames of brood etc from these especially set aside Nucleus hives. In his situation this method of having the set aside Nucleus colonies make perfect sense. Not only is this seen as a banking system, but the whole system can be used as a readily available source of (spare parts) if you will. Which makes perfect sense if you look at it in his point of view. Any extra nucs can be sold.

I have watched and listened closely to Mr Palmer, whom I have great respect for his teaching. I highly recommend his teaching, especially on How to maintain a sustainable apiary in the far North very interesting as well as educational. In my little operation I was wondering about banking a few. I suppose even in a small set up as mine, Mr HP is again right since in my area the bees do cluster in winter. At least I have learned of an option from Mr Bush if I want to install a terrarium heater and restock the bees in the middle of winter which I do not wish to take on such a project. Bob your outlook also makes perfect sense for a small hobbyist like me. I really would not like to break up a healthy vibrant nuc just to rob its queen, thus the thought of banking.  Thanks Bob and Mr HP for your help. 




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[TheHoneyPump]

In cooler climates over the winter, the bees cluster moves around accessing resources (food).  Queens banked in cages on a frame are at risk of being neglected or abandoned; as the resources are consumed and cluster moves away from them, and/or as the resources near them are depleted whereby the bees have little to nourish them with. Queens also need tending, massaging, grooming, and bed pan cleanup to stay healthy.  Unlike your dog Jake, she cannot lick her own abdomen.  Unlike your cat Garfield, she cannot groom to maintain hygiene. Finally, to maintain sperm viability the body of a mated queen needs to be kept in a fairly narrow temperature range.  Bees tight around her are able to create a micro climate to do so. More difficult for them when she is held away from them in a cage.

This is why we say the best way to bank queens over winter is as walking queens. This can be and is done in small colonies, from a mere couple frames to a single box.  Bob, in this context and intended purpose these wintering nucs are not considered hives.  We view each of them as - a queen and her support staff - .  I have banked them as small as two frames. Those come out in spring 5 months later with great queens and small staff level of only 200-300 bees left. I have since settled on 5 frames as a better size to support other apiary wide spring work needs and probabilities.

In climates that have mild winter, warm no snow etc; eg Hawaii, So-Cal, etc ... the cluster and resource conditions mentioned above do not really exist.  In those locales queens are successfully banked in cages for up to 6 months or more, waiting for the northern beekeepers to buy them up in the spring.

As for adding bees over winter. Again depends on climate.  Where it is cold, where bees are confined and dormant most if the time it is not unusual for a hive that has gone queenless in the fall to survive the winter just fine, get a new queen in the spring and carry on booming away. Thus, the need to add bees over winter is not necessary in those conditions.  In a milder warmer climate, the bees stay active throughout the winter and burn out depleting the population. There bees do have to be added every couple weeks.

The quote from Mr Bush's page above:   The use of supplemental heating essentially creates the in hive warm climate conditions to prevent the clustering and bee movement restrictions that create the caged queen problems noted above.  The heater effectively simulates the warm Hawaii-like winter.  A simple ingenious and necessary solution if one is intent of banking them in cages.

Hence the back track, the point - to answer Bens original question the location and type of winter matters, immensely.  This is another one of those beekeeping questions where the answer is - It Depends, Its regional.

Hope that helps!   In some way.
THP

[van from Arkansas]

Mr. Ben, I have maintained extra queens thur winter in 5 frame nucs, just as HP suggest.  However, last winter my nucs did not winter very well, most died off by February.  Last winter and early spring of 2020 was unusually cold and wet.  My area usually received a chinook of warm air, but not last winter.  My double deeps and even a single 10 frame deep wintered very well despite persistent unusual cold.

[Ben Framed]

Thanks friends for your replies. Mr Van my first season resulted in my main hive being knocked over by some type 0f critter. I thought I had lost the entire hive as it was a pure mess. I salvaged what I could, rubber banded combs back into frames etc. doing the best I could with my limited experience, yet not being able to find the queen. There were so many dead bees and gooed up gumey clumpy, I really gave the queen up for dead and ordered 4 mated queens from an up and coming breeder in Georgia. My thinking was "maybe one or more of these queens will make it if I use what is left of this hive and make nucs".        Jackpot!

When My queens arrived, I inspected the restored two box 10 frame hive and to my pleasant surprise, they had cleaned most everything. They had groomed the comb and reattached. I found new eggs and then the queen. Being I had already ordered and received the four queens, I went ahead with my original plans anyway. I split everything evenly, creating 4 new nucs and 1 extra nuc with the 4 purchased queens and the orginal. Again jackpot! Not only did those nucs survive, I am happy to tell they thrived, by following the methods that the Georgia Queen breeder given advice, along with advice from Mr Live Oak here. When spring came around I had to soon add another top 5 frame box to each and very one. Soon after that I moved each to a regular 10 frame set up. These 5 proved to be my best producers! There was not enough difference in the 5 to know which was from the bought queens and the orginal. I had made notes on the box tops just for reference so I would know which was which.

Mr HP as always I look forward to your input and replies. Your comment was well explained and through.

Thank you Mr Van, and Bob as well, once again.

[Oldbeavo]

We overwinter queens in 3 frame nucs. These result from 5 frame nucs that are used to bolster weaker hives to go to almonds.
Of the 5 frame nuc, 2 frames with the queen go into the 3 frame nuc and the other 3 plus loose bees go to the hive that needs bees.
We run about 10% of hives as nucs that stay with each group of bees as they move, ready source of brood or whole nucs for hives that lose their queen. These are mainly 4 and 5 frame nucs.
If we use a nuc then we will go  to one or two strong hives and add open brood and bees and restart it, and then it travels with the group.
If a nuc gets too strong we may split it rather than add it to a box. Depending on what we need. If we split a nuc then one will be taken to another apiary so as not to lose the bees back to the original nuc.

[Bob Wilson]

This is my second year beekeeping, and you guys really challenge me. I still find myself falling into the notion that every queen and batch of bees ought to be a long term colony.
The idea of keeping a few nucs for queens and resources has enormous benefits. I see that.

[Oldbeavo]

Bob
Because we are migratory bee keepers, and we may be working hives that are 50 to 200 mile away we have to be able to deal with what ever happens there and then.
We may have a poor hive that the queen is not up to standard, so to fix it now we will kill the queen then combine a nuc by putting it in the super above the QX using newspaper and icing sugar. Poor hive now has more bees, more brood and a new queen, problem fixed hopefully.
Put the queen down next visit.
If we have a very hot hive that are hard to requeen as they normally kill the new queen, we will kill the queen, take out all the open brood, go to a nice nuc and take out some open brood and add it to the hot hive. The only QC's they can form are from the nice nuc frame and so eventually a nice queen. Open brood from the hot hive can go to the nuc or any where with a queen. Hopefully problem solved, check next visit.
Nucs give you options in your apiary.

[Ben Framed]

Oldbeavo, as you are migratory beekeeper, certainly adds delight from a not seen everyday point of view. We have many migratory beekeepers here in America but these seem to be silent with sharing their ideas and points of view from a migratory standpoint. Just another reason I appreciate you taking time to help. Your post are refreshing and very appreciated. Thank you.

Let me add that thanks goes to all of our professional beekeepers that share here at the forum. Rounding off a solid point of view from Pros as well as beginners here. Great place to be. Thank you all.

[Michael Bush]

I was overwintering them once and we got a warm spell in December and someone in Texas wanted to buy them all so I sold them.  I think I might have gotten them to spring, but it's a tricky proposition.  You need a nuc well populated, a terrarium heater to keep them from clustering too tightly.  This, of course, shortens the lives of the bees.  So then you need to boost the population from a strong hive a couple of times over winter.  Perhaps doing it in a closed up (but ventilated) hive in the cellar with a boost of bees a couple of times overwinter might work better.  I may try it this winter again.

[Ben Framed]

I was overwintering them once and we got a warm spell in December and someone in Texas wanted to buy them all so I sold them.  I think I might have gotten them to spring, but it's a tricky proposition.  You need a nuc well populated, a terrarium heater to keep them from clustering too tightly.  This, of course, shortens the lives of the bees.  So then you need to boost the population from a strong hive a couple of times over winter.  Perhaps doing it in a closed up (but ventilated) hive in the cellar with a boost of bees a couple of times overwinter might work better.  I may try it this winter again.

Thank you Mr Bush for your reply. I admire your depth and insight of overcoming problems in beekeeping. The above quote is just another example of a quality beekeeper.

PS it is good to see you posting.

[Michael Bush]

My interns and I made the hive I intend to overwinter some banked queens in.  My plan is to put it in the basement.  Hopefully I won't have too many queens left over, I'd rather sell them, but it would be nice to see them make it to spring...