Can you help me with this sick hive???

[annette]

OK dear people!!!

I think I finally got to the bottom of why so many bees dying on the grounds of the hive everyday.

Went into the hive this morning and really, really looked. Unfortunately, I am so used to just checking for brood, pollen and honey I guess I forgot to actually look at the bees. Well today, I looked carefully and found many, many undeveloped pale colored bees without wings, many half the size of a regular bee.

Also many bees which I believe have those "K" wings I have heard mentioned. Is that when the wings do not lay flat against the body of the bee??? Because I have a hive full of bees with wings spread out and up. Is this "K" wings???

Can this hive be saved?? It has 2 medium supers and that is it. The bottom super is totally full of capped brood and the queen is doing a great job. Above in the top super is more brood, some honeyand the rest empty drawn comb frames. They have a good population.

I also checked my strong hive because now I am wondering if they are ok. Well guess what I found in that hive??
Also what I believe is "K" wings. Many, Many bees with this also, although they have normal bees too.

Please, Please help as soon as possible so I can save my hives.

Last night when I went up and saw so many bees on the ground struggling, I cried and cried. Have to detach from the emotions, plus my confidence level has gone way down.

Annette

[ronbert]

"K-wings" are wings extended at odd angles, may indicate tracheal mite (can also be indication of Nosema).

[doak]

I would try to get a new queen as soon as possible.
Don't try to rear one, get one already laying.
Might also add a frame of capped brood from another healthy colony.
My Bit.
doak

[KONASDAD]

Theres a differance between K wings and DWV(deformed wing virus) which is caused by varroa. DWV looks like the wings have jagged edges, irregular in shape, where one wing might hbe good, the other not. Google thses disorders for pics and look. Mites far more comon reason. If your not doing honey, a heavy chemical for mites might be nneded, or formic acid or oxalic acid. First google K wing and DWV to get pics or do search on this site

[kensfarm]

Do you have an SBB? 

If you do a powdered sugar treatment once a week for 3 weeks it will really bring the mite counts down..  my strongest hive had some DWV earlier in the year.

Get a flour sifter.. open the hive to the brood area..  and sift.  I don't bother to brush the top of the frames.. the bee's will "self powder" themselves from the powdered sugar remaining on the frame tops.  Put the hive together.. your done. 

It's simple, fast, and non chemical. 

[Scadsobees]

Sounds like Deformed wing virus.  If they can survive depends on how strong the hive is.  If it is strong and pulling in honey, then do the powder sugar treatment consistently every 5 days or less.

If it is a matter of survival, then I'd recommend caging the queen (a press in queen cage, #8 hardware cloth folded into a half box, pressed into the comb) and applying a softer chem like apiguard or apilife-var.   This will create a short broodless period so the only mites will be phoretic and exposed to the thymol.

Rick

[annette]

I would try to get a new queen as soon as possible.
Don't try to rear one, get one already laying.
Might also add a frame of capped brood from another healthy colony.
My Bit.
doak

What would be the reason to get a new queen????

I plan on doing the powdered sugar treatments starting tomorrow and continuing until I do not see the mites anymore.

What about my strong hive which is bringing in lots of honey right now. Should I take the hive apart and just do the powdered sugar treatments on the brood super below????? I have 2 honey supers on top almost filled up.

I will also check out more photos on the internet to determine whether k wings or DMV.

Appreciate the help and trying to remain calm now and do the right thing.

Annette

[rdy-b]

what level of infestation do you have. you need to do some kind of (24 hr) mite drop count or the sugar roll.then you will be able to see mite numbers drop and know where you are.lots of good advice but you need to monitor the progress.sounds like you are learning very much.in an emergency and this heat we are geting. may be you should use apistan. you can be better prepared from what you learn from this. and have a future plan with softer treatments. rember some bees can suport a mite load but it is the viruses they vector that kill the bees even after mite count drops  .more than 12 different types.need to blast the mites. or to much time will pass.just curious what is your treatment and treatment scheule in the past? chin up and cary on no matterwhat happens. RDY-B

[Michael Bush]

>My weak hive (2 medium supers now) has had many bees wandering around aimlessly every day on the ground around the hive.

A typical symptom of Tracheal mites.

>Well this morning when I finally really checked found many, many small pale colored bees with no wings looking bald.

A typical symptom of Varroa mites and Deformed Wing Virus.

>Very ugly looking bees. The regular bees also had strange shaped wings.

Like they are crumpled?

> Many with wings standing up and to the sides of the back.

That would mean nothing.

> I believe the norm would be wings lying flat on the back???

Not necessarily.

>The wings do not look tattered, just the odd shape. K wings?Huh??

"K" wing is when they are split so you see four distinct wings, where usually the two wings on each side are connected to each other.

>Well I was so upset, that I also checked on my strong hive that has 2 honey supers on top and I quickly checked a frame from that hive and also found some k wing???

Or just wings open?

>bees in there as well, although found normal wings too.

Or wings closed?

>Not sure what the problem is, but need help fast so I can save these hives. My only 2 hives.

The strong one is probably fine.  The weak one is probably past helping.

The way to handle tracheal mites is to have queens that are tracheal mite resistant.  Anyone who raises queens and doesn't treat for tracheal mites, will have tracheal mite resistant stock, as it's easy to breed for.

To kill tracheal mites, the only recommended treatment is menthol.  Although I've heard thymol will also work and the thymol products will kill varroa as well, which you seem to have.  Apilife Var and another product (Apiguard perhaps?) have thymol.

You can get very drastic and remove all the capped brood, treat for the Varroa, treat for the tracheal mites, but odds are, at this point, they won't recover.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#varroa

[Kathyp]

with the warm weather they have, the thymol (apiguard) will work quickly.  it gets both tracheal and varroa mites....but the bees that are so damaged are not going to make it.  maybe you can treat and then combine hives?  or after treatment, reduce hive size to 1 box and treat them like a nuc until they can build up again?

[annette]

what level of infestation do you have. you need to do some kind of (24 hr) mite drop count or the sugar roll.then you will be able to see mite numbers drop and know where you are.lots of good advice but you need to monitor the progress.sounds like you are learning very much.in an emergency and this heat we are geting. may be you should use apistan. you can be better prepared from what you learn from this. and have a future plan with softer treatments. rember some bees can suport a mite load but it is the viruses they vector that kill the bees even after mite count drops  .more than 12 different types.need to blast the mites. or to much time will pass.just curious what is your treatment and treatment scheule in the past? chin up and cary on no matterwhat happens. RDY-B

According to Michael Bush's description, I do not believe I have any "K" wings on either hive. My inexperience is showing. So now that k wings or any abnormal wings have been eliminated, it may be the tracheal mites that have been mentioned.

I just did a powdered sugar treatment this morning and after 1 hour counted only about 37-40  mites.Does this sound bad????

I will count again after 24 hours. I only do powdered sugar treatments and I did check this hive about 2 months ago and they were fine. Very low count. I did not do treatment during the main honey flow.  Usually do the treatments in the fall (once a week for 4 weeks) and in the spring I monitor them every few weeks until the honey starts to come in.

This hive may have been very weak from having swarmed, then not having a queen for a while,( I had to introduce a store bought one as found them queenless about 1-1/2 months after the swarm),then having the store bought queen only laying drone brood for a while, then having a robbing situation (I was out of town then) and never really got its numbers back up to well. Now the queen is doing great but maybe to late.

It sounds like this hive is probably doomed, so have to decide about the other treatments. I may do them just to see if there is a chance to save them.

I will let you all know about the mite count tomorrow after 24 hours.

Thanks for all the help and I am feeling a little better now from all this. I picked up one of those small deformed bald bees that was dying on the ground to examine it more closely, and it stung me through my leather glove. Not bad though.

I truly appreciate all the help I am receiving from everyone here. Have a peaceful day
Annette

[Kathyp]

if your queen is laying great, and you don't have signs of disease, maybe all is not lost.  you have much warm weather still before you.  do you think you need to feed to help them along, or do you still have enough blooming?  i know it's hot there.  just talked to my mom and she's complaining about it :-).

if you need to treat for tracheal mites and nothing else, you may be able to treat with just menthol.  it might be cheaper than the apiguard.  if you are not sure and need to treat for both mites, i don't think you can do better than apiguard.

[annette]

if your queen is laying great, and you don't have signs of disease, maybe all is not lost.  you have much warm weather still before you.  do you think you need to feed to help them along, or do you still have enough blooming?  i know it's hot there.  just talked to my mom and she's complaining about it :-).

if you need to treat for tracheal mites and nothing else, you may be able to treat with just menthol.  it might be cheaper than the apiguard.  if you are not sure and need to treat for both mites, i don't think you can do better than apiguard.

kathyp

I do still have the problem of the small, bald  bees without wings looking very deformed, and the bees dying on the ground. This hive is very sick. Tell me how to do the treatments with the menthol and the apiguard. I will call the bee store to order the stuff today. I guess I should try it at least.

I do not have to feed this hive as they are bringing in honey and pollen and have enough right now. I can always take a frame from my strong hive to feed them if need be.

Yes the heat is terrible right now. I heard my strong hive humming very loudly yesterday during the day to try to keep cool. They are on a very hot knoll.

Thank you so much for all the help
Annette

[Kathyp]

i haven't use the menthol.  the apiguard is really easy.  just peel open the little tin and set it on the frames.  you do need a spacer between top and frames, and they do advise closing the top and SBB.  that may not be an option if your days are to hot.  i don't know about the menthol.

if you have a place you can call, maybe they can recommend something? 

[sean]

but if you are using apiguard then you wouldn't need the menthol. I would think that at this stage you need a cure with longer lasting effectiveness.

[rdy-b]

lots of great advice coming through for you. do a search on beesource for PMS paricitic mite syndrom. i belive if it where trachea mites you would see much larger numbers crawling with symptoms. this is not the east coast things move a litel diferent here. much of the good things that come in to play for many dont fit every place. keepers in the foot hills are afected by viruses mites vector but you already know that.talk to the other keepers and ask what are the sighns of a hive crashing.they will talk of varoa. RDY-B

[annette]

Just came back from looking at the hive about 1/2 hour ago. It is a terrible site with hundreds now,of bees just congregating on the grounds of the hive. Many of them remain in a circle cuddling up against each other perhaps to console each other. The others just wandering around looking lost on the grass.

It is dying fast I believe. I do not know if I will do anything. I called the Sacto Bee Store and they do not sell menthol anymore. They recommend grease patties made from equal parts crisco shortening and powdered sugar. They say to slap a pattie on the hive as the grease dislodges the mites from their throats. Anyone heard about this???  They told me to place a patty on the other hive as well and to do this all summer long, except during the heavy honey flow. I still do not know when the flow ends here. I can see the bees have slowed down with honey production, but they are still bringing it in (that's the strong hive I am speaking about)

What do you all know about these grease patties???? At this point, I want to make sure my strong hive doesn't end up like the dying hive.  It would seem with these patties, that it would break up the cluster in the hive at night having this pattie sitting on the top bars.

Please let me know what you think

I feel sick when I see the hive suffering like this.

Annette

[DayValleyDahlias]

Annette,

I am so sorry for you and the bees, I feel your...pain...I too grow attached to little creatures...hope your other hive will rally...

[rdy-b]

Menthol can be obtained at mann lake in woodland ca.very close to you. www mannlakeltd.com 866-880-7678  ask for Duane or judy they will help you with every thing.RDY-B

[Kathyp]

google grease patties.  you'll get lots of hits and recipes.  very easy to make and apply.