The two queen hive DOES have two queens - what now?

[tillie]

All suggestions about what to do will be appreciated:

This is the 8th day since I put the queen excluder between Hive Box 2 and Box 3.  The current configuration of the hive is:
Box 1:  original box, full of capped brood, young brood, etc.
Box 2:  2 filled and capped honey frames on each side of the box, 5 SC starter strip frames in the center of the box and 1 full SC foundationframe
Queen Excluder
Box 3:  Brood cells, some capped, some new larvae on about 5 frames on the right side of the box,
Box 4:  Honey in the center, undrawn SC starter strip frames on the edges
Box 5:  6 Harvested honey frames that they are cleaning up (originally from Box 2) with 4 frames of SC starter strip on the right side

I took the hive apart today and this is what I found:

There was very young larvae in both hives, indicating that there is a queen in both Box 1 and in Box 3. 

The laying pattern in the upper box was not good - kind of spotty, but young, very tiny larvae.  I did not see any eggs in either the bottom box nor the top, but I rarely do on inspection, nor did I see either Queen A or Queen Bee.

The bees in the bottom hive covered all the frames and in spite of using smoke were angry and upset with my taking apart their home.  I haven't done that since early May.  Although I found cells with tiny larvae, they were all over the place - not in one central place.  They were occupying cells that have been used over and over since this bottom box has been honey-bound.

In other words, neither queen seems to be a winner, although there were tons of bees in the bottom box.

There were fewer bees in the top brood box 3, but brood in the center of five frames.

I'm at work and can't post pictures.

Here is what I am thinking of doing and desperately want feedback and suggestions:

1.  Split the hive into two hives
2.  Leave the weaker, smaller upper hive in the current location so that bees from the bottom box may return to the weaker hive and help build it up
3.  Add a frame of brood/eggs from another hive to make sure they can make a queen if they are unhappy with this one who is laying in a funny pattern

4.  Move the stronger hive to a different location about 6 feet away (that's the only place I have)
5.  Also add a frame of brood/eggs to it from another hive since this queen is also laying all over the place

Cross my fingers and hope for the best.

The way I see it, there's no harm in doing this since we are through with the nectar flow for the most part here and are in the middle of the worst drought in 50 years.  I end up with two hives, each with their own queen.

What should I do differently than the above?

Linda T anxious for help in Atlanta

[Kirk-o]

It sounds like a good plan.You could also squish one of the queens and re arrange
thins do a newspaper combine.You would have one hive with honey in it with one queen.If you split you would have two hives.I think It just depends on what you want two hives or one hive with honey surplus.Michael Bush has good tips on splits and how to place them faceing each other right together then in two weeks swich places so the bees balance out read about moveing on his site that will give you a little extra data.You have turned into a good beekeeper do what you think is best
kirko

[Understudy]

The spotty brood has my attention.

I would leave them as is. The queen in the upper benefits from having both sets of bees. If she gets bad the combine will happen without the newspaper. If she gets stronger than you can do a divide.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Michael Bush]

I'd leave them.  If the bees think a queen is failing they will dispose of her.  Sometimes there are other reasons there is not much brood.

[tillie]

If I leave them, should I remove the queen excluder?

Linda T still confused in Atlanta

[Understudy]

If I leave them, should I remove the queen excluder?

Linda T still confused in Atlanta

No.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[tillie]

Here are pictures and problems. 

In upper box/hive, the brood pattern is skimpy and scattered.  This is the box in which I have a picture of the queen about 9 days ago laying egg after egg in even rows.  Wonder if the bees are cleaning out bad brood for some reason.  There are also a much smaller number of bees in the upper "hive":





In the bottom are tons of bees but the brood is scattered all around in whatever empty cell the queen could find, I imagine:



Look at the Varroa mite on the bee in the upper left...can't miss it!

I'm going to leave them as one hive with the queen excluder between them for another week or so.  I'll decide how to handle them before I leave town for vacation the week of July 4.

Linda T befuddled as always in Atlanta

[Michael Bush]

I see nothing wrong with that brood pattern.

[tillie]

Thanks, Michael, that's so helpful. 

I don't know how to judge. 

That's why I posted the pictures.  In the top two pictures from the upper hive, it looks so skimpy to me that I was afraid something might be wrong, but the queen is young and new so maybe that explains the "holes." 

If I did decide to split the hives, could I do the split described on your site as an "even split" (to which kirk-o refers) where you put the boxes side by side and then reverse the hive locations a couple of weeks later so the drift evens out?

Linda T in Atlanta

[Michael Bush]

"Shotgun" brood is what is considered a bad pattern.  It's usually caused by a queen who is too inbred.  The inbreeding causes Diploid (fertilized) drone eggs to end up in the worker cells, which are removed by the "egg" police.  This leaves empty spots all over like a shotgun pattern on paper.  This has always been considered a bad sign.  But now we are breeding bees to be hygenic and they sometimes chew out the capped larvae to get rid of the mites.  This also leaves empty holes, but they happen later in the cycle (purple eyed pupae) than the inbreeding does where the eggs are removed before they even hatch.

[Kathyp]

i see a couple of cells in the center pic with holes in them.  are they cells that have not been closed yet, or are they being opened?  i have never seen that in my hive.

[Michael Bush]

The caps look very new, so I'm guessing they are in the process of being capped.  But it's common to see the getting uncapped to remove Varroa infested larvae or any other larvae that got Chalkbrood, or any other brood disease.  A lot of them is a sign there is something going on.  A few of them means they are doing their job.

[Brian D. Bray]

In a developing hive it should be noted that "shotgun" brood can be a normal condition due to other things besides an inbred queen or hygenic behavior.  In checking my packages I set up at the end of April, I found that the bees were putting nectar and eggs mixed onto the same areas of comb because of so little actual drawn comb.  The brood pattern appeared "shotgun" with cells of nectar around and through the brood area.  As the hives have continued to develop this has changed to more of a normal pattern with the brood area being more defined and the food area taking on more of its arc over the eggs pattern that is accepted as normal.  The holes in the brood pattern are more hygenic typical behavior.   

If the bees enter a drought or dearth situation during its development it will stop building comb and resort to the earlier development type of behavior filling nectar in spots that are normalling brood areas and reducing the laying area of the queen. 

I am seeing a little of the dearth type behavior in my hives, this while blackberries are starting to bloom. The comb building has temporarily stopped and all food is going to feeding live bees with a little storage and the brood patterns are starting to collapse as the queens are kept from laying to make room for stores.  Ain't no juice in dem dar flowers.

[Kathyp]

no juice in the blackberries?  :-( this is the last big bloom and i'd hoped my hives would catch up on them.  after blackberries, it's just weeds and vegetable gardens.....