new questions about problem hive

Kathyp · July 01, 2007, 03:40:23 PM

you guys are probably tired of this. i know i am. i'm ready to take a torch to this hive.

on examination today i found: even though i had moved brood up into top box and the bees appeared to have moved up, after a week, they had pretty much abandoned the brood frames and gone back to the bottom box.

there are about 4 frames of brood in the bottom box and very little food even though they have pollen patties on, and syrup.

they are very slow taking syrup.

some of the caps on the brood are sunken, probably 20 per frame, but i see no sign of disease on larvae and emerging bees looks healthy. there are some brood that have died as they emerged, but not many. there are some caps with holes, but not many.

there is some comb building but the number of bees seems to have gone down.

what i did: i removed the brood frames from the top box and put them back in the bottom box. i them removed the top box, leaving them with only one deep.

i left the syrup on.

treated with PS even though i see no sign of mites on bees or brood.

WHAT AM I MISSING!!!!!

the queen is doing her thing, although shes not the best in the world.

sorry i didn't get pictures. i expected to find them in much better shape :-(.

sean · July 01, 2007, 04:15:42 PM

I think you did the right thing in reducing the size of the hive. I have a similar problem with about 3 of my hives. the queens are young, but they don't seem to be laying as they should, i have decided to leave them as they are for 1 more week then i will be switching them with some stronger hives. You may want to consider doing this. Also if you say the queen is not the best then change her. lets hope someone with more experience will soon respond. Will the queen reduce laying if the worker force(field bees) is not as large as it should be?

imabkpr · July 01, 2007, 05:27:34 PM

kathyp; Your problem could be caused by several things. American foul brood, hive too hot, chemicals, genetic altered crops such as Corn, Beans or cotton.

I lost several colonies last year in the same way. The bees built up very fast in the spring, late Feb. early Mar. The middle of March they didn't look as good as in Feb. At that time I was feeding corn syrup. I took the corn syrup away, started feeding surar water. The bees started to do a little better but not like they should have. I kept feeding sugar water where needed until the cotton started producing nectar. Then my troubles really started. After the first spraying I lost about 50% of my fielders and kept loosing till there was nothing left but a few stragglers.
As you have stated the brood cells were sunk in and some had pin holes in them, but no odor, Foul brood was ruled out. This year I started nucs on some of the old frames. Everything fine, no foul brood. Nucs did very well

I come to the conclusion, cotton spray and a contaminated water source was most of my problem. I also quit feeding Corn syrup. I also think ants moved in after the bees left causing some of the holes in the brood caps.
Charlie

Kathyp · July 01, 2007, 05:27:42 PM

i was wondering the same thing about lack of workers. i may not be entirely fair to this queen. she seems to lay where they make room for her. i just don't understand why there are a lack of workers when the brood seems healthy. obviously, i am missing something. the other hives are going great even though i don't expect honey. they are building up like crazy, finally!

Kathyp · July 01, 2007, 05:32:44 PM

QuoteYour problem could be caused by several things. American foul brood, hive too hot, chemicals, genetic altered crops such as Corn, Beans or cotton.

i think i have pretty much ruled out the above. the closest the brood comes to looking infected might be chalkbrood, which i had in another hive this year, but there are no mummies anywhere. it cleared up in the other hive and no sign of it in this one. it's definitely not to hot :-). the other things would impact my other hives, but they are doing great.

these bees look healthy. it's driving me nuts. the only thing i see are the depressed cappings and a few with holes. color good, smell good, bees emerging look good.

sean · July 01, 2007, 06:29:41 PM

Quote from: kathyp on July 01, 2007, 05:27:42 PM
i was wondering the same thing about lack of workers. i may not be entirely fair to this queen. she seems to lay where they make room for her. i just don't understand why there are a lack of workers when the brood seems healthy. obviously, i am missing something. the other hives are going great even though i don't expect honey. they are building up like crazy, finally!

try switching positions with a stronger hive and see what happens

KONASDAD · July 01, 2007, 11:41:38 PM

Agree w/ sean on this one. If you think workers are all that is needed, switch places to enlarge work force. Or add frames of capped brood. I wouldn't combine as disease is still a possibility.

Brian D. Bray · July 03, 2007, 11:15:43 PM

A hive that is not building its population will not build comb for stores. If the hatch rate of the brood is just keeping pace with the die off of worn out workers the hive will refuse to grow. It is a need to expand the living quarters that primarily motivates the bees to build comb. By building comb they can increase the brood area (population) and the stores area at the same time.

A hive that doesn't have a growing population will not draw comb because they don't need the living space. When they build comb they are increasing population by increasing the brood chamber and adding necessary stores for the larger population. When they stop the population growth they stop building comb and begin backfilling the brood area with stores. This is the mode your bees are in currently, this is also the mode in find them in in the fall.

Also, when baiting bees to move up, use frames of stores not brood. If the bees abandon the moved frames because they are not experiencing a population growth the brood left behind dies (Chill brood) and that can lead to other diseases. The abandonment of the brood frames actually decreases the hive population forcing them out of the space you just provided. Moving frames of stores avoids the ill effects that spoiled brood can cause.

Switching the location of the hive so that the foragers from a larger hive returns to the hive forces an increased population on the hive and they will start to operate in the growth mode again. The other way is to put several frames of brood from other hives into the struggling hive providing a population growth. Just remember that in adding frames you cannot add more frames than the bees can cover OR more bees must be added with the brood frames.

Only by increasing the population of the hive substantially can you get the bees back into the growth (comb building) mode.