Help needed

[jl]

This is going to be a long one.  Sorry.  Location:  Northern New Hampshire.  Started hive on 4/28/07 with 3lb package with Italian queen and no drawn comb.  The hive consists of three deep hive bodies.  I did a complete check of the hive today and noticed something disturbing.  I'll go from top to bottom. 

In the top deep the bees have six frames drawn out on both sides.  There is some honey, (maybe one full side of a frame added up), very little un-capped honey, eggs, larva, and capped brood. 

In the middle box all frames are drawn and there is some honey, maybe a whole frame both sides if you added it all up, very little un-capped honey, eggs, larva, and capped brood. 

In the bottom deep all frames are drawn and there is absolutely no honey, no eggs, no larva or capped brood but tons of pollen. 

So a three deep hive as of today has only maybe 1 1/2 frames of capped honey and not much un-capped honey.  There are alot of bees throughout the hive.  There are no swarm or supercedure cells and the queen appears to be laying alot of eggs, but only in the upper two deeps.  She has room to lay in the bottom deep.  In fact the outer two frames are fully drawn and have absolutley nothing in them.  No honey, pollen or brood.  There is room to lay in the middle also in the bottom deep.  The bees are coming and going like mad and bringing at least pollen back to the hive.  In fact I have to admit that since my last check, I think there's less honey. 

I'm concerned that they're going to die this winter if they don't have more honey and there can't be much more a flow coming around here, but I've never done this before so I don't even know if feeding is the answer and if yes what recipe I should use.

Any thoughts
Jeff

[michelleb]

I'm no expert, but I will tell you that what you're seeing isn't all that unusual, because I've got the same thing going on in a couple of my colonies--tons of pollen below the nest. But I do have more honey/syrup stores, because I've been feeding.

I, too, am eager to hear input from more seasoned beeks. Thanks for asking the question!

[JP]

I have noticed that on my last several removals, except one from two days ago, most of the hives I'm running across don't have a lot of honey stores. We have been dry and hot, and it was a bad honey crop this yr in my area due to lack of rain. I can imagine that without a good fall flow, a lot of the hives I'm seeing won't winter well. The one I removed today was 7 and a half to 8' in lenght, between two ceiling joist, that had very little honey, sorry no pics of this one. Feeding could be the key to survival into next spring.

[Kathyp]

same here.  only hive with semi-decent stores is the one that went queenless for a time.  others have little.  i'll be feeding through september and october.

[jl]

will they store sugar water as a type of honey or do they just use it to feed on at that particular time?

[rdy-b]

they will store and cap 2:1 and they will consume 1:1   basically 2:1 for food stores  and 1:1 for stimulation  works for me hope it works for you RDY-B

[michelleb]

I've noticed that the bees have very quickly evaporated and capped even the 1:1 I began feeding first week in August. And it hasn't been too hot here, either.

Anybody have any advice about manipulating frames of pollen when the lowest deep is flush with it?

[Dane Bramage]

This is going to be a long one. 
Any thoughts
Jeff

I agree.













Just kidding! heh  Not long at all.. in fact I've a few additional questions ~>
Is it necessary/common practice there in NH to overwinter with 3 deep (10 frame) brood chambers? 
Did you wait until your package had drawn 7-8/10 framed prior to adding the next brood chamber? 
Were more frames ever filled in previous inspections? 

Answers to these questions may help deduce a bit of how their present situation has come to pass, which could also help it be avoided in the future.  It seems you may have had (and could be presently having) a dearth (i.e. nectar shortage).  At any rate, I believe you've got a bit much space for the bees to effectively manage and insufficient stores for overwintering.  I'm a bit of a novice but I would pursue this course of action:
1) consolidate the hives - Down to two deeps, eliminating as many empty frames as possible.   Take care to place frames in proper sequence (don't break up adjacent brood frames, etc.,)
2) watch the honey stores - Very closely while trying to identify any nectar source(s) available.  Seems you could be at a critical point already, never mind making it through the winter.  If there is no flow coming in, stores are staying stagnant or even diminishing - start feeding immediately.  (plenty of threads on feeding in addition to the good replies this thread).
3) keep feeding, monitor their stores, keep an eye on nectar flow (natural is always best).  Get some local feedback from other beeks regarding late nectar flows, specific overwintering requirements/techniques, etc.,.  Keep reading/researching and always verify any info &/or advice received/found (especially my advice!, lol) .  In my location 2 deeps full is recommended for sufficient overwintering, but if you find you really require 3 ten frame deeps, your bees have their work cut out for them depending on the weather's schedule.

Best of success to you!

Regards,
Dane

[buzzbee]

I agree with Dane,
Consolidate to two deeps and feed feed feed  to get the boxes heavy for winter.

[reinbeau]

To third the above two messages, please get that hive down to two deeps, you don't need three.  We use three mediums here and in Maine.

[jl]

Dane and others,

I added the third deep because it was a new hive and I wasn't expecting any honey this year, but I want to get another hive next year.  My thoughts (probably wrong) were to let these bees draw the comb out in the third deep so next years new package would have a head start since they would have drawn comb already.

Second Question:  No, I wasn't going to overwinter with three deeps, I was going to take the third away leaving as much honey as possible.

Third Question:  Yes, each time I added a box, I waited until 8 of the frames were drawn on the previous box. 

There were never any full frames of capped or un-capped honey.  They had and have it spread out throughout the hive up in the corners of the frames.

Dane and others, You've prompted other questions.  How do I go about consolidating the hive?   What frames do I decide to take out and replace or should I just take the bottom box off as there is hardly anythng in their but pollen.  I had thought of taking the frames filled with pollen from the bottom box and replacing the undrawn frames in the top box with the pollen frames.  There is still going to be some pollen left in the bottom box can I place this box on the ground in front of the hive with a ramp so the bees take what they do have in the bottom box out?

There are still alot of bees, Isn't reducing there space going to make the hive extremely crowded?  Should I then added a shallow super after consolidating to two deeps so they have room?  Especially since I'll be feeding?

THanks again and Dane you got me.  When I saw your post I said to myself "You agree with what?"  Nice one! :-D

[BMAC]

JL if you just want them to draw out the comb for the third body then pull all the drawn honey frames out of the top two.  You obviously need to leave brood alone.  But if it has no brood pull it out and reduce it to 2 hive bodies.  A little crowded?  Good.  This will give all the bees something to do.

Feed them like crazy at a 1:1 sugar/water ratio.  I believe that is optimum for wax production.  Feed them till it is all full and capped.  Go in everytime you feed and move the undrawn comb to the middle and the drawn (no brood type) to the outside.

[Understudy]

Others have already said it.

Consolidate the hive.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Dane Bramage]

How do I go about consolidating the hive?   What frames do I decide to take out and replace or should I just take the bottom box off as there is hardly anythng in their but pollen.

Since the frame inventory you've described is somewhat lacking you may not be able to construct an ideal brood chamber layout from just removing the one chamber & consolidating.  That being said, there must be a graphic here, in print, or a thread somewhere that describes/illustrates a healthy hive's layout.  But, essentially it is frames of brood at center, surrounded by frames of honey, bee bread/pollen (the exact # and sequence escapes my memory).  Replacing the bottom chamber sounds like a good plan, though you may be able to use a frame or two of pollen from there in your consolidated hive.  Do the best you can with what you have and then feed to get their stores up to spec.

Cheers,
Dane

[jl]

thanks for the help.  I'm going to knock it down to two deeps.  With what I have for frames in the entire hive I think I'll be able to have a good mix of brood, honey area, and pollen.  thanks  I just hope it's not to late.

thanks

Jeff