top entrance w/SBB ~> burr comb under hive

[Dane Bramage]

Greetings,

I have screened bottom boards (SBBs) on all my hives.  I've one hive that I converted to top entrance.  This was done in order to accommodate top-entrance pollen collection.  I did an incremental switchover from bottom to top entrance and had very minimal transition issues.  The bees adjusted fine and pollen collection proceeded with excellent results. 

Since then, somewhat recently (last few weeks) I've noticed significant numbers of bees huddled under the SBB.  Replacing the sliding bottom board did not resolve this.  I thought this might be attributed at least somewhat to bearding as all the other hives have a platform for "hanging out" at the entrance.  But I also think they may have devised a way to bypass the pollen trap entrance and are transferring nectar through the SBB. 

Just yesterday I noticed that there is now some burr comb built resting on the bench directly under the SBB where the bees are congregating.  Has anyone else experienced this and should it be a cause for concern?

Regards,
Dane

[kensfarm]

W/ the strength of your hives..  I guess it might have been a small swarm hanging out. 

[Understudy]

Do you have burr comb all the way to the screened bottom board from inside the hive?

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Dane Bramage]

Thanks for the replies.  :)

kensfarm ~> a mini-swarm had crossed my mind.  Seems odd but they are very insistent upon staying at that locale.  I've knocked them out several times by both placing and removing the sliding bottom board.  I'll have to closely examine the comb.

Do you have burr comb all the way to the screened bottom board from inside the hive?

The burr comb to which I'm referring is outside the hive.  The hive sits on a bench and the comb has formed on the bench, under the SBB.  If you're asking if burr comb has formed inside the hive as well, not that I could tell when I last looked (same time I found the comb outside) but I will verify this.  I had checked on burr inside the hive near the SBB with the concern that burr comb went right thru the SBB, from inside to out.  It does not and placement of the sliding bottom board is unobstructed.  The burr formed outside is somewhat egg-shaped, and about the size of a grapefruit.

[Understudy]

I understand that the burr comb you are talking about it is just under the SBB. My question is whether it is a continuation of some comb from inside the hive. I suspect the bees are looking at the SBB almost like an excluder. And it is just a continuation of the comb from inside. If there is is burr comb just above it.

I don't think it would be a seperate swarm but I could be wrong.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Dane Bramage]

My question is whether it is a continuation of some comb from inside the hive. I suspect the bees are looking at the SBB almost like an excluder. And it is just a continuation of the comb from inside. If there is is burr comb just above it.

If you're asking if burr comb has formed inside the hive as well, not that I could tell when I last looked (same time I found the comb outside) but I will verify this.  I had checked on burr inside the hive near the SBB with the concern that burr comb went right thru the SBB, from inside to out.  It does not and placement of the sliding bottom board is unobstructed.

So I've pretty much ruled that out (but will still re-verify)... it is a separate piece of comb.   I think what has happened is that they were congregating below the SBB for so long they decided to build comb (independently) there.  Odd eh?  I'll do a close inspection of that comb.  If it has eggs (unlikely) I'll really be trip'n.

[rdy-b]

How big is the cluster of bees golf-ball tenis-ball or soft ball and what size screens the SBB my money is on a cast swarm with a virgin queen many possibilities open up here  8-)  RDY-B

[Brian D. Bray]

My suggestion would be to open up a miminal bottom entrance ( an inch or 2) and see if the cluster doesn't then move back inside.  I would surmise that the change over to the upper entrance didn't go was well as you thought and some of the bees are trying to go through the screen into the bottom of the hive--they're passing their forage results through the screen and have actually made the space under the SBB as part of a hive.  I would guess you might also see some evidence of chewing on the inside of the SBB as a result of the bees trying to unite the 2 areas. 

I've done some cutouts where chewing through the studs was how the bees enlarged their home.

[Dane Bramage]

rdy-b ~> the bee cluster varies in size.  At some points it has been fairly large - cantaloupe sized.

Brian D. Bray ~> the transition had been working for a good month + as far as I can tell/recall.  I had that same idea as you've suggested and have re-opened the bottom entrance, at first just a small amount, later (when that proved ineffective), opened 100% (still leaving top entrance open as well).  Nothing seemed to work as they continued to congregate under the hive.  This has been true even with the bottom entrance opened 100% AND the sliding bottom board replaced (really has me puzzled).  I'll check for any chewing... I want to get to the bottom of this.

I appreciate the thoughtful input!

[JP]

I'm thinking cast swarm as well. I'm sure we will get a diagnosis from your next inspection Dane. I know you will look carefully for a small queen in that cluster. Also, just a reminder, when looking for the queen, don't get settled in your mind that she will be of the same color as your other queens. She could be not only small, but a different color, or one that has rings and looks a lot like a worker. Virgins can be real tricky to spot sometimes.

[Cindi]

Dane, I wonder if putting the hive on the ground/floor with no space underneath it for a short time would cause the bees to "have" to go inside and not hang out underneath.  Something has gone weird there, no doubt.  The comments our friends have made are good and make lots of sense.  Good luck, keep us posted.  Wonderful day, greatest of life.  Cindi

[Dane Bramage]

Thanks JP & Cindi. :)

I'll be able to investigate closer this afternoon & will report back tomorrow, latest. 

The SBB is built with "feet" that raise it above the ground (necessary in the design if it is to provide ventilation). Setting the hive on the ground (in my case, the deck) from the benches won't actually create less space for them.  I could just remove the SBB altogether however - set it right on some plyboard or some such, that would remove ALL the space underneath.  Good idea Cindi ~ I might just do that if I don't end up putting this little cluster in their own Nuc (if they end up being a "cast-off" swarm).

Thanks again!

[Cindi]

Dane, be careful, they might be too small to keep even a nuc warm enough for them or rear brood, not sure if that would work.  Have this wonderful day, keep us posted.  Cindi

[rdy-b]

If he puts the nuc on top of a strong colony via double screen they will catch the heat and do fine sometimes we take plywood and make some two inch holes and put screen on both sides and do the condo thing with weak colonies struggling in winter just an idea we still dont have a cause for the effect yet  RDY-B

[Dane Bramage]

Thanks for the additional suggestions.  :) 

Update:
I checked the hive in question out more thoroughly yesterday evening.  The congregation of bees had diminished considerably and apparently abandoned their little burr comb.  The burr comb, which had some nectar previously, appeared empty.  There is no burr comb in the hive near the SBB.  No SBB damage (chewing), that I could tell.
Why this mass of bees appeared (after not being their after the initial bottom to top entrance conversion) and has now largely dispersed is a mystery to me.  But, not to worry. It would seem this is resolving itself right in synch with my losing patience.  hahaha

But, as long as I've anyone's attention ~ another related question: What do those beeks who've hive's with top pollen collectors do, if anything, to accommodate drone escape & removal (of dead ones).  I did notice both quite a few collecting on the SBB during inspection now and a flurry of activity cleaning house of them when I had re-opened the bottom entrance previously.   I imagine it is quite difficult to drag a dead drone up through the pollen trap exit.  Solution = drone escape?  If so, what is optimum size & locale? (I'm hesitant to re-open the bottom entrance even slightly).

Thanks again all!
~Dane

[Brian D. Bray]

The old style pollen collects that I remember seeing had an open and closed position.  Open the bees entered and walked over the pollen collections screens when entering the hive.  Closed the bees bypassed the collection screen and drones could come and go as well. 

I admit that I haven't ever used a pollen collector personally, but have seen several in my younger years.  All were built with the switchable entrance--Don't they still make them that way?

If not maybe you can modify yours so it has that option.