Winter Preparation for hives question.

[jeffreym]

What form factor should a hive be in when Winter arrives?  What I mean is, that some people say it should only consist of 1 or 2 deep bood chambers with ventilated top, wrapped in tar paper.  Some say, no leave on the honey supers.  I'm confused on this.  Do I ALWAYS pull the honey supers off (with or without any honey harvest from them) or leave them on.  Of  course I realize that I am assuming that there is an adaquate supply of honey in the bood supers.  Last year was my first attempt at this and I only left the two bood supers on with top and wrap...but then again, the upper honey supers didn't have any honey in them anyway.  I don't think they liked the queen excluder....  Anyway, they got through the winter just fine...BUT, if I did have honey in the upper supers, should I have left them or removed them.  Is the sole purpose of the honey supers (again assuming adaquate honey in lowers) to provide me a harvest of honey?
Seem that every book has there own ideas on this.  Sorry for the rookie post, but I'm confused.
Thanks,
Jeff-

[Cindi]

Jeff, just a couple of sentences of advice.  Beekeepers winter their bees in one or two brood boxes.  The third box, which is generally the honey super, is not left on the colony.  The whole thing about the winter cluster is exactly what the word means.  Cluster.  When it is cold outside, the bees form a cluster, this keeps the colony warm within this cluster, this is how they survive.  If they have an empty box above them (the 3rd box you are speaking of), then they have more of an area to chill them.  Bees can survive very nicely to about -35 degrees, they just cluster more tightly and vibrate the thoracic muscles to generate heat.  But this third box is absolutely 100% needless, when they are in the winter cluster.  YOu will hear more comments.  Do not use a third box, two boxes is just fine (and again, some only use one).  Have a wonderful day, lots and lots to learn in the world of the bees.  I have been in this specialized world since April of 2005, listening and learning and feel I am still only on the tip of that iceberg.  Cindi

[jeffreym]

Great Cindi, and thanks. Two boxes it is.   I'll take this information to the bank!   :-D

[buzzbee]

Jeffreym
You should really include your location for wintering advice.

[jeffreym]

Sorry, central Michigan.  USA

[Kathyp]

if you go to your profile, you can put your location in.  that way, it will always be there when you ask a question.  i am amazed at how different info can be for different areas.

i live in an area where the winters can be nasty.  cold and wet.  rain, ice storm, snow.  two deeps are good for me if there are enough bees.  i have one hive that will only be one deep for this winter.  take off the honey supers.  it's just more space that they have to keep warm.  make sure that there is provision for some ventilation.  i have a small hole drilled in the back of my top supers.  that seemed to be enough.  i had the bottom board in, and the entrance reducer on the small setting.

[DayValleyDahlias]

This is good info...we have very mild Winters here, maybe less that a week of freeze...but still it can get cold...I will leave 2 brood boxes on...I do not think we wrap with tar paper here..I will ask around...

[Kathyp]

i don't wrap.  people here don't.  i do protect the entrance from snow and ice.  my protection also acts as a wind break.

[reinbeau]

One point to mention - it's two supers if you're using deeps, three if using mediums.  Three mediums is the equivalent space of two deeps, it's what's needed to overwinter in the colder climes (Michigan is definitely in that category).

[Potlicker1]

To piggy back on this question, how do you reduce a bustling 3 deep, 8 frame set of brood chambers down to two in the fall if it's all that's needed?

[Cindi]

potlicker1.  YOu will hear more comments about your queery.  I too often wondered how on earth 3 boxes of bees could fit into 2 or even 1 box.  This is what we were taught in one of our seminars about "wintering bees". 

Dump the extra box(es) of bees on the ground outside the hive.  They will all try to get in, the older ones will go away and die.  They will be dieing anyway as winter comes, their lives were nearly at the end.  It it the bees that were born in the last of summer that will winter well, not the old ones.  The bees figure out who is going to give up their life, they know what they have to do.  The bigger the winter cluster, the better.  This is what I know, you will probably get a deeper definition, listen and learn.  Have a wonderful day, greatest of this life.  Cindi

[Kathyp]

ahhhh, my question from last year!  :-)  got lots of answers, but finally took the one from finsky.  he told me to just go on out and shake the bees out of the 3rd box into the 2nd box and call it good.  worked fine.  took only a few minutes to do.

a couple of notes.  if box 3 has brood, you might want to put an excluder on now and let that brood hatch out.  make sure you get the queen down below first.  if there is honey in 3, you can freeze it to feed back, or take it.  i froze mine last year and did not have to feed.  just added the frames in late winter when they needed it.  we had an unusual warm up in Feb.  got to 70 on a couple of days!  the bees were ready for some food by then.

[BeeJay]

I was wondering also, here in Canada its very very cold! Should I keep the top entrance for ventilation? Will the snow blow in?

[rdy-b]

If you have a honey supper above your brood box or boxes it should contain or be full of honey remove excluder winter cluster will move up to feed on honey that is good if no honey above cluster bees may not be able to move over one or two frames many times bees will starve in there boxes that have honey out of cluster reach.during cold snap bees are in cluster then out comes the sun warms one side or a portion of box bees gravitate toward warmth then before you know it cold snap back bees form cluster right where they are and are to far from food and starve bees can always move up easier than side to side. cluster moves up to food and colony survives cold snap all is well these are just some ideas that have saved many colonies of bees i hope they help you get your bees through the cold period of winter  one more thing honey on outside frames of brood nest good even if they dont eat it that honey and honey above actually serves as a insulating chamber to hold in heat need ventilation so condensation dose not cause problems also  RDY-B

[Michael Bush]

I go with the cluster size.  If I've got a cluster that about fills one deep, they need another deep for stores.  If I've got a cluster that about fills one eight frame medium they need another eight frame medium for stores.  If I've got a cluster that about fills two deeps, I probably need two more for stores...

[Cindi]

BeeJay, you are in New Brunswick, I am in southwestern B.C.  You must have an open ventilation hole for moisture to escape from your hives in wintertime.  With the lid on, it fits down over the slot in the front of the inner cover, moisture escapes from this hole.  The telescoping lid will prevent snow from drifting in.  Bees can survive the coldest weather, but if they get condensation dripping on them, they will die.  Plain and simple.  No if, ands, or buts.  Have a beautiful day, great life.  Cindi

[rdrcl]

Hello all:
  Just wanted to make sure I am understanding this all correctly. Right now I have 5 hives all of them have two deeps and one medium all full and this is how I was planning on leaving them for the winter. I don't really need the honey and want to split next spring so want them as big as possible then. I also lost my only hive last year to a cold snap and lack of food and do not want this happening again. Since the third box is full of honey and is not just empty dead space I should be ok shouldn't I? By the way I am in central Missouri our winters are not all that bad compared to some of you but we do get some cold spells.

[rdy-b]

  THats the idea i think you will have good results doing that  :)  RDY-B

[Brian D. Bray]

rdrd: You might want to isolate the 3rd box from the main body, you can do that by placing the inner top between the top 2 supers.

Also, Top entrance hives need no extra ventilation holes.  The top does it all especially if you're using a SBB along with it.
With my hives I use top entrances with a slatted rack between the entrance and the super and have no problems with condensation, ever.  If you're worried about cold air exposure from an open bottom with a SBB don't.  If you want to be safe just install a slatted rack between the SBB and the hive body.  The rack acts as a thermal layer--essentially and air pocket of insulation.

[Kathyp]

rdrcl, is that the USS New York?