Apiguard failure

[KONASDAD]

I just finished 20 days of apiguard application on five hives. Two are completely infested. I can see mites just freely walking around, bees w/ DWV, attached mites, chewing out pupae. Nonetheless, lots of capped brood, stores etc. They act normal, but i am at a loss for words as to what to do now. I followed the directions to the letter, temps were correct etc.

[DayValleyDahlias]

That is discouraging news....to say the least...

What will you do next?

[Kathyp]

interesting.  i think we should try to keep track of this.  to date, i have not heard anything about apiguard resistant mites, but you may be seeing something worth noting.

[KONASDAD]

I contacted the state apiarist w/ whom I am friendly. He may be by this afternoon to look. Weather is rainy(and we need it badly) as it were. Interestingly, these are two completely diff't queen lines. One is locally created minn hyg and the other is a purvis queen. The purvis bees attack the mites before my eyes, only this hive was only started in JUly and is weaker by virtue of numbers. The hygenics are exhibiting more wing deformity. I think the other bees are chewing out more pupae to combat the mites and no bees w/ DWV are reaching maturity. Just some observations.

[Scadsobees]

How did you apply it? Did you put it on the top of the brood nest with a spacer, SBB closed as directed? What have your temps been like?

I applied it and after 2 days had lots of mites dropping, they were chewing out brood (because the apiguard), and were definately affected.

Rick

[KONASDAD]

Did all of that. The temps were high, high eighties to low nineties. Very dry entire time. In fact, one hive I forgot to close SBB, and that hive is fine. Created space for tin tray. In one hive, I had brood in both deeps, so I placed on top 1st week and in between the second application. In the other failed hive, it is only a deep of brood, placed tin tray between the deep and a med that is filled w/ stores plus shim. This hive has a solid BB.

[Kathyp]

i found this     http://www.vita-europe.com/Map_enscript/frmbuilder.php?dateiname=%2Fen%2Ffaq.htm

in skimming through, the only thing i can see that might make a difference is the placement of the apiguard.  this says it's heavier than air and moves downward in hive.  if placed in the middle, might that make a difference in mite kill?  i don't know.

also, you solid bottom board may have contributed to you mite load in the one hive.  looks like they recommend that you leave the apiguard on until it is all gone even if it's more than 2 weeks at a time.  makes sense.  you want to get the mites on the bees as it does not get the mites in the larva.

i'll have to read this more carefully.   thought i'd put it up for others to study.

[buzzbee]

The instructions for apigard are this:
See Vita's leaflet. If you are using Apiguard in trays: peel back the lid of the tray and place, gel side up on top of the brood frames. Make sure to leave enough space for the bees to get into the tray (use a spacer  or an empty super on top of the brood chamber. Close the hive. After 2 weeks repeat with a second tray and leave in place for 2 - 4 weeks. If you are using the 3 kg tub: use the scoop and spatula to apply 50g Apiguard onto the dosing tray provided. Repeat after 2 weeks and leave in place for a further 2-4 weeks.

[Kirk-o]

You Know these chemicals make chemical resistant mites sick bees and contaminated wax.You should give Michael Bush's site a read especially small cell
you and your bees will bw glad you did
kirk-o

[Erik T]

You Know these chemicals make chemical resistant mites sick bees and contaminated wax.You should give Michael Bush's site a read especially small cell
you and your bees will bw glad you did
kirk-o

Small cell isn't going to help his bees at this point so it's irrelevant to this discussion.  Once he gets his bees through this crisis, he can decide for himself if he wants to regress them to small cell.

Apiguard has been shown to be 93% effective in suppressing mites.  It functions as a protein denaturant that disrupts the mite's cell membranes and affects all their cellular processes.  It is unlikely that the mites could build a resistance  to this.  It is NOT a pesticide.  Since it is so volatile, it is unlikely to contaminate wax.

I am surprised that it failed.  I've been testing it in a hive and am witnessing excellent results.  I'd like to know why it failed for him.

[Erik T]

Apiguard probably isn't going to kill mites in capped brood.  If the load was that high, it might take >20 days to get the levels down.  The treatment time for apiguard is 4-6 weeks. 

You should be keeping daily logs on the mite levels to measure effectiveness.  My test hive was dropping less than 10 mites a day before application due to small cell plus PS treatments.  Once I applied apiguard, the mite drop increased to 188 a day and has been tapering off to much smaller numbers.  My treatment has only been going on for 10 days or so.

I'd keep treating and see how it comes out.  If it doesn't work out, I'd repeatedly clean some wooden hive equipment with OA vapors. :roll:

[Michael Bush]

Thymol is very temperature dependent.  Was the weather warm?  Also any treatment while there is capped brood does not appear to work for about three weeks because of constantly emerging brood. (even if they say it can affect capped brood, I wouldn't count on that).

See the model here:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm

[Cindi]

Hmmm... Now I know why Finsky got so angry off with his advice to forum members about mite treatments.  I have posted several times about mite controls.  I will continue to try to help.  Apiguard (tymol) is a very good mite control measure.  It is not chemical oriented like comouphous or fluvalonite.  It works in other ways.  So does formic and oxalic acid.  These three chemicals are "natural", meaning, found in nature, excellent means of mite control.  The mites do not build up resistance to these three assistances.  But....temperature oriented.

Take some time.  Do some research.  Again, I will post a favourite site of mine that will give so much information about mite  control methods.

http://www.mitegone.com/

The author of this site will teach many good lessons, listen, read and learn, come on, take the time.  To become a good beekeeper, you must be informed, you must study, take the wintertime to take this in your hand and roll with that ball.

I was the worst beekeeper during my first year of beekeeping because  I was uninformed.  I had taken Beekeeping Level 1 and 2, as many seminars I could get my hands on, and read many, many boods.  But...I did not fully realize the magnitude of understanding the biology of the bee, how our inattentiveness affects the bees.  I was not fully aware of how much damage can be done by not taking full control of the Varroa Destructor mite issues, I just thought I would let the bees be bees.  I learned valuable lessons, and during that summer after my second year with the bees, I lost 8 hives due to the Varroa Destructor mite.  I learned some valuable lessons during my first one and one half seasons --  I am still on that tip of that iceberg.

I get rather long-winded, and for this I apolgize, just putting my thoughts onto the screen of my laptop, hoping that some words may make some sense.  Have a wonderful day, most beautiful of this life.  Cindi

[rdy-b]

we know the product works that is a no brainer now try to figure out what he needs to do to be successful perhaps some small little detail might make the difference  KONASDAD this is the field experience that will set you above the ordinary bee havers it dose not come without a price  ;)  RDY-B   8-)

[Erik T]

He's probably not going to see much of difference in mite loads until sometime between 3 - 4 weeks as MB stated.

Unfortunately, this incedent demonstrates the danger of allowing the mite levels to get too high.  Very hard to recover from.

[beekeeperookie]

No offense to anyone, be easy on the guy.  No need to rip peoples heads off, or make them feel like an idiot

[Kathyp]

erik t, i'm guessing you are right.  he'll have to go through the entire brood cycle and it will take at least 6 weeks, but he should see a drop in mite levels on the adult bees pretty quickly.  he should also see a reduction in mature mites pretty quickly.

konasdad, if you have not finished treatment, i'd go for the full 6 weeks.  put the apiguard back on the top of the hive, rather than between boxes and see what the extra time does for you.
don't know what to say if you have removed apiguard and discontinued treatment.....

[KONASDAD]

I dont feel liken an idiot, yet! I want your contructive criticism. I feel like I must be missing something small but important and it is only through this hashing out process that I will figure it all out. I followed the directions and I still found mites. I am inclined to beleive it may have not been on long enough as MB suggested.

A few factual notes however. The bees removed all of the treatment. When I removed the trays they were empty of meds. It was hot during the entire treatment. Very humid. I could smell the meds in the air for about 4 days after each tray was placed. So it was definately being vaporized throughout the hive. I would also find small bits of the powder being ejected out of the hive each morning, so they were handling the stuff too. Some brood was also ejected as additional proof the meds were being diffused throughout the hive.

I did a sugar shake yesterday on all 5 hives to assist w/ mite reduction. The next question becomes what next. Thses hives are far from dying as they are expanding even as we speak. I feel confident if I do the correct thing they will survive and be ready for winter . I would PREFER to not use synthetic chems, which is why I used thymol. I have never lost a hive in my very limited experience, and am attempting to keep this streak going.

[TwT]

you did do the 2 treatments on 2 week intervals, it says they are required for maximum control? it says the 2nd treatment should be left on for up to 4 weeks or as long as the gel remains.


got it from here

http://www.beeculture.com/storycms/index.cfm?cat=Story&recordID=498

[Kris^]

What others have said I think is correct, that if you're doing treatment while brood is being raised, go through two brood cycles.  My first year, my only hive developed a heavy mite load, with deformed wing syndrome and everything.  I used apistan in the fall for six weeks, and the hive survived the winter.  Next year I had four hives, and the two package hives I bought had mites, so I did the same thing.  However, in late fall, I also gassed them all with oxalic vapor, and all of them survived.  Last year I went into winter with 10 hives, and gassed them all again.  Five of them died in mid-spring because of the mid-February/March series of cold snaps we had, but none of them had evidence of mites.  I've done no treatments this year, and none of the six I now have have evidence of mites (although I've had queen problems with a couple of them).  Finsky knows his stuff about oxalic, although I prefer to vaporize rather than drip.  I think if you get a regimen of annual treatment going and try not to co-mingle your bees by dragging them into strange places, you'll do alright.

-- Kris