How slowed down is too slowed down for the queen in the fall?

[tillie]

In my mostly Italian mutt bee hive, the queen has really slowed down.  I even thought she might be dead or gone, but the hive acts happy and doesn't have the queenless roar, that I now know how to recognize.  They fly in and out laden with pollen.

Last Saturday in inspecting I went into the brood box and found lots of capped brood but only one frame with young, new brood.  As usual I didn't see the queen.  This hive is also low on stores, so I am feeding them in spite of the SHB. 

I don't know how to think about this queen.

Should I be worried?
Is this normal for a hive in October?
Is it too late to requeen or should I even be thinking about that? (this of course, assumes I can find her - I've only seen her once this year)

Linda T worrying in Atlanta

[Old Timer]

my queens are slowing down too. the capped brood is now in a tighter pattern and a lot less than it was. a lack of flow will also cause the queen to slow down as well as longer cooler nights. it's just natural. my queens here usually completely shut down by around the first of december.

[Kathyp]

mine are way slowed down.  i did my last check two days ago.  very little brood.  i am feeding.  stores are to low to get through our winters.  our temps are range between 40 and 60 degrees.  no frost yet, but a couple of nights in the upper 30's.

[Michael Bush]

In a complete dearth, like we are in here, now, a queen may shut down completely or at least back to just a few eggs a day for emergencies.  But the problem with that is old bees going into winter... so I'm feeding.

[Brian D. Bray]

I've been feeding my bees for over a month now.  The honey flows of the summer were practically non-existant and I had to start feeding or lose my bees.  I stopped feeding for a week and the bees started using stores.  The only thing they are foraging for right now is pollen, propolis, and water. 

Queens will stop or decrease laying for several reasons: 1. honeybound (going into winter you want the hive honeybound, that's your winter stores), 2. Dearth or drought--no food, no brood, 3. pre-swarm to slim down for flight.

If you're not in the Gulf states or Southwest you should be seeing a decrease in brood production and backfilling of the brood area--if you're not you're to lose bees unless you feed and force them into a honeybound condition.

[Robo]

ditto to what the others said.  As long as they are queenright, I wouldn't worry.

[TwT]

my queens have been about shut down for month's, now that the goldenrod is starting to bloom and we finally getting a little rain plus me feeding for the last 2 weeks my hives are exploding, about time, queens are different, I had some that had just a few eggs and some were shut down completely, they just react different to dearths....

[annette]

Mine have also slowed down some, but we are having a small flow going on right now.
I do have a question though. In checking the frames for honey, some frames below in the brood area are empty.

So even though they are bringing in some honey right now, do I need to start feeding to fill up the brood area??

I thought to wait until they stopped making this honey, but not sure what to do???

Annette

[Old Timer]

annette, your bees need some empty comb to cluster on this winter. they can freeze if the hive is honey bound. as long as they have enough stores for winter i would not feed them.

[Brian D. Bray]

The cluster of bees in a week or so is going to be less than half of what it was a month ago.  The die off from foraging and decrease from less brood laying makes sure of that.  The cluster will probably run 80%+ nurse bees verses any foraging bees. 

In a nuc I would not expect a cluster much larger than a soft ball on the center 3 frames.  On an 8 frame hive I would expect maybe a cluster of a size that would cover the bottom 1/2 of 3-4 frames in the center of the hive.  I say center of the hive because that is usually the area where the brood chamber was kept open the longest and where some brood may even be raised during the winter.  As long as there is enough open comb for the queen and her attendents to be on and lay and raise a little brood the remainder of the cluster can be on capped comb.  They wil consume this capped honey under/within the cluster 1st.

[Cindi]

Hmmm.  Now we have some deeper thoughts in my mind going on.  I had a chance to go out the other day (in our little window of sunshine that I had before torrents of rain came down, again) and examine the colony that had the swarm issue from.  This is the colony that I took pictures of the virgin queen a couple of weeks ago and the obviously mated queen.

In the second brood box it had all nine deep frames (has an inner feeder inside for the 10th frame), they are deeps.  All of these comb were filled to the brim with honey/sugar syrup.  In the bottom box there was not as much, so I took 4 frames from the upper deep and put them downstairs.  I placed 4 empty (replacing 2 of the undrawn frames for drawn comb frames) frames in the upper chamber.  I am presuming this manipulation was correct enough.

The reason why I put the empty frames in the top box was exactly what Old Timer and Brian spoke about.  The bees require an open space to cluster in the wintertime, that being frames with no honey or stores in it.

It is important to understand how the winter colony lives.  Do some studying, I encourage everyone to understand their bees, their biology, this will make you better beekeepers and your job easier too, because understanding can make a world of difference when you know and understand why you must perform certain actions in bee caregiving.  Have a wonderful day, best of our life.  Cindi

[annette]

Tillie

What is that queenless roar like that you are talking about??? Do they do this all the time?? Does the hive seem happy when they do this, or lethargic??

I am trying to figure out if one of my hives is queenless right now and am looking at every possibility. I have introduced 2 frames of brood (with larva and hopefully eggs) This is a very healthy looking and very energetic hive.

Last evening the queenright hive was dead silent, while the hive in question was making a very loud sound. They do not do this all the time.

Do they roar all the time when they are queenless????

Any help is appreciated
Annette

[asprince]

tillie, TwT, and I live within 100 miles of each other (Georgia, a gulf state). About a month ago, I move my hives to a 60 acre field of golden rod and other flowering weeds that look like small mums. After a devastating  summer, my hives are exploding with brood, pollen and stinking honey. If it were not for this fall flow, this year would have been a bust for me. My mentor tells me this has been the worst he has seen in 30 years of beekeeping.

I just returned from an inspection. Two weeks ago, I placed a deep box of frames that I had frozen after infestations of SHB and wax worms, on top of one of my single deep boxes. Not only did they clean up the mess, but it is now full of brood, all stages, honey, and pollen. I was even able to spot the queen.

As you can tell from the tone of this post that I am please with my hives........the ones that survived the summer. Up until now, I have not had much to be please about.

Steve

[Michael Bush]

>Do they roar all the time when they are queenless?

It's louder when the hive is disturbed.  Noticably more so than a queen right hive which will also put up a buzz.  But the queenright hive has a harmonious sound to the hum.  The queenless hive is more of a dissonant sound or a roar.  I've also heard that roar from queenright hives that have been being robbed.  They will put that roar up all night even though the robbers are home for the night.

[DayValleyDahlias]

My hive doesn't have a roar...a quiet hum...what should that tell me? I haven't looked for a queen in 4 weeks...

[Michael Bush]

>My hive doesn't have a roar...a quiet hum...what should that tell me?

Probably all is right with their world.

> I haven't looked for a queen in 4 weeks.

I haven't looked for a queen in longer than that...

[doak]

tillie, the slow down for winter for our area, should hit 0, or close, for only 2 or 3 weeks in late Dec/early Jan. "if" all is well.
For a dearth slow down, it can vary.

The Queen-less roar in more or less the normal roar in high gear. ;)
doak

[Kirk-o]

Just relax they are probably still buzzing away.It gets colder there than in L A
so they slow down more here they are aways going
kirko

[Brian D. Bray]

My hive doesn't have a roar...a quiet hum...what should that tell me? I haven't looked for a queen in 4 weeks...

IMHO, Looking for a queen is the sign of an inexperienced beekeeper.  The activity and condition within the hive will usually tell you all you need to know.  Don't waste energy looking for a queen when the important information you need and want is right before your eyes.

[Cindi]

Just an interesting thought.  I understand too that the queenless colony creates a roaring sound.  Michael you say that a queenright hive when it is being robbed can sound the same.  That is my understanding of comments.

I wonder......the roar from a queenless colony, that sound is probably because a queenless colony is vulnerable, they feel and know that.  A queenright colony that is being robbed is vulnerable, they feel that and know that.

Two similarities.  The "roaring" sound is indicative of a very vulnerable colony, whether it be queenless, or for any other reason vulnerable.  Just thinking out loud, as Ted would say.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day, greatest of this life.  Cindi