Frame positions??

atthelake22 · October 12, 2007, 07:56:41 AM

Hello everyone!
I hope someone can help me out with this question. :?I know it probably isn't a common question for all the seasoned veterans on the site, but I am only going into my FIRST winter alone (remember last year I "inherited" this wonderful perfect life as a beekeeper when I lost my buddy, :'( my dad who started our Busy Bees business from scratch)....anyway, what i need to know is this, inside the hive bodies....we are going into winter with 2 hive bodies per colony....but the frames inside i KNOW are supposed to ultimately be in certain places to have optimal success for the bees over the winter. :-\..for instance i know that the honey can't be too far away from the brood nest in order for them to get food on cold cold winter days.
I live in the southern most tip of Ohio and our winters are severe at times but mild others so we have no idea what we are facing :roll: (basically like everyone else) but don't let the "southern" part fool ya...it gets very very cold here!
Anyway, I was wondering if anyone could tell me the position the various frames should be in going into winter...I know already the brood and brood nest will be in the center frames...and from what i can find (which is very very little) on my own was that pollen should be beside the brood in the hive, however, doesn't that leave the honey too far out?
We have 10 frame hives....could someone give me an idea as to how the frames should be going into winter...for instance should the outer frames be pollen or honey...

Our hives have done really well this summer in spite of the ccd that took half of our other hives last winter. :'(...fed in January and all were great, fed in March and BOOM GONE!! We lost 60 percent of our hives!) I know for sure one froze but the others there were NO BEES whatsoever to speak of anywhere at ALL in the hive. :shock:.weird, and i know this is being researched, but i don't want the position of where the frames are being a reason they freeze or to be honest i don't think my heart can take losing my precious girls again this year!!
So please if anyone can tell me the ideal position of frames in the hive for wintering please let me know...i do know not to disturb the brood position and do know they move UPWARDS over the winter so honey need be on top box but should it be ALL honey on top?????(besides center area for the brood) please help!! Thanks, i have tried to research this on my own but can't find what i am looking for so i turn to the BEST .....this forum...should have STARTED here, but thought i'd be proactive and learn and research it but there is nothing i can find so far that will help me out.....I know there is vast knowledge on this site and i thank you in advance for anything you can share on this....
Sincerely and anxiously awaiting,
atthelake :-D

bassman1977 · October 12, 2007, 10:15:49 AM

Going into winter you will see very little if no brood at all. The bees should have already filled up any voids with pollen & honey. It's a little late to ask this question as it is starting to get colder now and the flows are done (at least here they are). If you need to feed, you should get on it right away before it gets too much colder for that.

That being said, because there isn't much brood production going on, just leave the frames alone. The bees should be filling EVERYTHING. If they don't or at least come close, then they have too much room. You want a nice tight area for them to cluster and keep warm. If their hive is packed with food, they will find it with no problem. Another concern, as mentioned in a lot of various threads, is condensation. Check out some of those threads as to how to take action against that.

When you say you have 2 hive bodies, what size? 2 deeps should be plenty if they are large colonies. I do everything in mediums and 3 of my smaller hives are going into winter with 2 mediums. I am confident they will make it fine (food wise).

I hope this helps. Good luck.

TwT · October 12, 2007, 10:55:33 AM

you shouldn't be nothing to worry about, the bee's set up a hive naturally, the bee's been doing it longer than us and they will have it set up best for them..... now if you pulled honey from them you might want to make sure their stores are filled and if not feed some 2-1 syrup.

Cindi · October 12, 2007, 11:27:03 AM

Atthelake22. I am sorry to hear that you lost your buddy, and so many of your colonies. You will have good responses from this forum, I am not in your area, so I cannot comment. All I know is that our hives require about 60 pounds of stores for the wintertime. You will hear more from our forum members I am sure. Good luck with your bee endeavours this year, you are doing great!!!! Have a wonderful and beautiful life and day. Cindi

Michael Bush · October 13, 2007, 08:44:41 PM

If you leave it alone the bees will arrange it the way they need and want it. If you have a pile of frames and are trying to figure out where they belong, the worker brood comb goes in the middle with pollen outside that, honey outside that and drone brood outside that. The bees around here start and finish the winter in the top box but everyone seems to think they should start it in the bottom with a box of honey overhead.

Cindi · October 14, 2007, 01:31:26 PM

Michael, do the bees if they start out in the top box go down, and then come back up? Curiosity never got this cat!!!! Have a beautiful and excellent day. Cindi

Michael Bush · October 14, 2007, 03:10:00 PM

>Michael, do the bees if they start out in the top box go down, and then come back up?

Mine have always started the winter at the top and finished the winter at the top. If I open them up in the middle of winter they are still at the top. This was true when I had bottom entrances and double deeps and it's true with eight frame mediums and top entrances. it seems in the south they often winter in the bottom box, but I have not seen that in the North. I'm sure on warm days they rearrange the stores.

Moonshae · October 14, 2007, 09:28:34 PM

Heat travels up, so it seems logical that they wouldn't want all their nice body heat to float up and keep the beeless stores warm. If all the heat is generated at the top, there should be less wasted energy, because the only place it can go is out the small ventilation space.

Zoot · October 14, 2007, 10:42:34 PM

So... if a substantial amount of stores are in the bottom boxes and the winter is cold will the bees move down to access those stores? This is the first season I have used top entrances and in each of my hives the bees are definitely in the top 2 or 3 boxes (8 frame mediums). I'm trying to arrange enough capped honey around the brood but it doesn't seem like there will be room for enough without leaving at least one additional super on top. Will they go up and/or down as need requires?

Brian D. Bray · October 15, 2007, 12:02:33 AM

Quote from: Zoot on October 14, 2007, 10:42:34 PM
So... if a substantial amount of stores are in the bottom boxes and the winter is cold will the bees move down to access those stores? This is the first season I have used top entrances and in each of my hives the bees are definitely in the top 2 or 3 boxes (8 frame mediums). I'm trying to arrange enough capped honey around the brood but it doesn't seem like there will be room for enough without leaving at least one additional super on top. Will they go up and/or down as need requires?

The bees will move the stores where they need them. I believe if a thermal detector were focused on a hive every day all winter long that there would be little movement of the core of the cluster except from side to side. The bees will move the stores from the corners to the cluster during the warmer days of winter. Warmer being a relative term.

Cindi · October 15, 2007, 12:14:02 AM

OK, so this poses another question. If the stores are capped, it is said that the bees move the stores to a position closer to the cluster. I thought the cluster moved as an entire unit to where the stores are :? :). Not quite getting this one. Elaborate please.

Also, does this mean the bees uncap the stores, relocate the stores and then recap? If the stores are not capped, the 17.8% moisture content of honey would surely become rehydrated, thus causing the honey to become thinner, less nutritious, the more moisture in the food they eat, the higher chance of nosema disease. Please elaborate. Have a wonderful day, beautiful life we live. Cindi

Brian D. Bray · October 15, 2007, 12:50:24 AM

Not having kept my head inside a bee hive all winter long I will have to answer on supposition tempered with experience.
The bees will uncap the honey to move it close to or within the comb the cluster is on. They will not recap it because it is in use. Do you reseal the jar of pickles you just opened? No, it's not necesary because they will be used up in a short period of time--the same thing with the honey the bees uncap and move to feed the cluster.

Michael Bush · October 15, 2007, 12:53:10 AM

>OK, so this poses another question. If the stores are capped, it is said that the bees move the stores to a position closer to the cluster. I thought the cluster moved as an entire unit to where the stores are

Sometimes. Sometimes they move the stores to the cluster. Especially once they start rearing brood and they rear brood off and on all winter. Then they CANNOT move to stores and they HAVE to move the stores to the cluster.

>Also, does this mean the bees uncap the stores, relocate the stores and then recap?

No, they just move them. I have never seen them recap them.

> If the stores are not capped, the 17.8% moisture content of honey would surely become rehydrated, thus causing the honey to become thinner, less nutritious

No. Actually it HAS to get thinner before they can consume it. They need the water in order to metabolize it.

> the more moisture in the food they eat, the higher chance of nosema disease.

I don't know about that, although I have heard it. But they have to have moisture in it as they cannot eat honey without water to go with it, the same as you cannot eat food without water to go with it.

Old Timer · October 15, 2007, 01:08:28 AM

> If the stores are not capped, the 17.8% moisture content of honey would surely become rehydrated, thus causing the honey to become thinner, less nutritious

>No. Actually it HAS to get thinner before they can consume it. They need the water in order to metabolize it.

exactly. bees prefer nectar as their food source. honey is a ration for hard times. they do thin it down to eat it, but i always thought they did it to make it more "nectar like".

Cindi · October 15, 2007, 11:12:41 AM

Well, holy smokers!!! So, this is the best of the best, this is why the forum is such a fabulous learning tool. Learning something new all the time.

I actually did not realize that the bees required the honey to have moisture added to it for them to use it. I thought that they simply eat the honey, thick as it is.

Good. More learning, listening. Hmmm...I should begin to count how many new things I actually learn during a day. This would probably be a staggaring number (hee, hee) :) :) :)Have a wonderful and beautiful day in our great life. Cindi

Zoot · October 15, 2007, 12:20:45 PM

several of my mentor-type neighbors have related instances in the past where hives had abundant capped honey stores ABOVE the cluster and still starved - For some reason they never moved to or transfered the stores - and in other winters they had hives that had minimal stores yet survived with some hard candy and, as a a last resort, powdered sugar.

I guess my concern is that with my already upward located clusters it seems that eventually, at some point in the winter no matter what they do with the stores below (mostly pollen down there) , whether they consume it or move it, there will be a fairly considerable amount of empty space...isn't that a problem in itself?

Brian D. Bray · October 15, 2007, 06:21:26 PM

Quote from: Zoot on October 15, 2007, 12:20:45 PM
several of my mentor-type neighbors have related instances in the past where hives had abundant capped honey stores ABOVE the cluster and still starved - For some reason they never moved to or transfered the stores - and in other winters they had hives that had minimal stores yet survived with some hard candy and, as a a last resort, powdered sugar.

I guess my concern is that with my already upward located clusters it seems that eventually, at some point in the winter no matter what they do with the stores below (mostly pollen down there) , whether they consume it or move it, there will be a fairly considerable amount of empty space...isn't that a problem in itself?

The key words are Temperature and movement. Bees can starve to death surrounded by an abundance of honey if they fail to break cluster on the warmer (again a relative term) days of winter. On the other hand if a hive is not only willing to break cluster but attempt foraging on those warmer days, the hive could survive on what might be inadequate stores.
Normally the bees will take the stores closest to them 1st and work out from the cluster to the very edges of the stores. Periods of prolonged Cold can disrupt this activity. Sometimes during the coldest part of the winter the bees have to go the fartherest from the cluster to obtain their stores.
A beekeeper can aid his bees by, on those warmer days, moving the frames of stores the furthest from the cluster inward and the empty frames the bees are not clustering on out to the edges. You can tell when this can be done when you open the hive. If the bees are moving around they have broken cluster so it is warm enough to move frames. If they fail to break cluster, even when opening the hive the choice is to put the top back on to create less cold esposure to the bees or go ahead and move the frames. Those choice being lose a few bees or lose the hive.

BlueEggFarmer · October 15, 2007, 08:27:55 PM

Another question to go along with this subject.
If I used all wax foundation, would it help the bees if I were to put a hole through the middle of each one so that the cluster could pass food back and forth easier than having to have the whole group climb up and down all the frames?

Michael Bush · October 15, 2007, 10:08:06 PM

>Another question to go along with this subject.
If I used all wax foundation, would it help the bees if I were to put a hole through the middle of each one so that the cluster could pass food back and forth easier than having to have the whole group climb up and down all the frames?

I've never tried it. Langstroth suggested it. He would bore a hole through the whole hive, frames and all and then plug the holes in the box.

Old Timer · October 16, 2007, 06:20:35 PM

>Another question to go along with this subject.
If I used all wax foundation, would it help the bees if I were to put a hole through the middle of each one so that the cluster could pass food back and forth easier than having to have the whole group climb up and down all the frames?

the whole group doesn't move around like you may think. the bees on the outside of the cluster will get the honey and pass it mouth by mouth to bees closer to the center. this is good reason why hives die out from trachael mites in january and febuary when they won't die out as often from them through the rest of the year.