Honey Ale w/propolis extract in lieu of hops??

[ooptec]

Hey,

Have made a few honey Ales that were outstanding. I'm not sure if home made beer is as popular a pursuit in the 'Excited States' as the 'High(ly)Frozen North' as our beer prices are $21CAN ($22.68US    lol) for std. domestic brands.

My best recipe so far, tho all have been v. good and the diffs. are minute. Mostly I like a distinct hop character w/o strong bitterness so employ 'late hopping' technique.

2 Kg (4.4lbs) Pale DME
650 g (1 Can. Pint aka 2C) Honey
2 oz Centennial last 30 mins (all hops loose leaf as make excellent filter bed)
1 oz Centennial last 20 mins
1 tbsp Irish Moss 15 mins.
1 oz Centennial last 10 mins
1 oz Centennial last 2 mins

Wyeast1056 American Ale Very, very, very, extremely, very, extremely important to use pure strain liquid yeast

Boil Time 30 Minutes
Ferment temp 10°C (50°F)

Sparge into as cold as poss. H2O

Liquid yeasts may be a few$$ but if start the next batch on dregs of previous batch's primary can do 4-5X bringing the cost down to  a negligible amt. $$

But wandering   lol   if anyone has attempted to substitute a ethanol extraction of propolis for the hops???

Tasting the prop. extr. it reminds me of hops kinda and both have antimicrobial properties.

????????

cheers

peter

[taipantoo]

I think the ethanol might kill your yeast.
As far as I know, most yeasts will terminate at a specific alcohol content specific to the yeast you use.
If that happens with the yeast you are using then you may want to try a champagne yeast either after you use your ale yeast (50*F sounds like it might be a lager yeast) or right at the beginning instead of your ale yeast.

Always interested in a fellow Zymergist's experimentations.
Tai

[Mici]

ok so..first off, i need someone to translate like...50% of the stuff you just wrote

ok so i see a very complicated mixture of ingirdients and a very low fermentation temp.....

so, if you remember, i'm still in process of doing my first semi-amateur batch of beer. i like...forgot about it in my room so it fermented for more than a month..ah well, anyways, now it's in the cellar waiting...maybe in a week i'll try some.

explain about the price again'' 20 $ per can?!?!?!

[Moonshae]

The recipe I like doesn't use any malt at all, just honey and hops. I'm not a hoppy kind of guy, so I prefer my hops to have less of an impact...just enough to keep the beer from being cloying. I also use champagne yeast.

$21CAN is 21 Canadian dollars, not $21/can. :P

[taipantoo]

The recipe I like doesn't use any malt at all, just honey and hops.
$21CAN is 21 Canadian dollars, not $21/can. :P

That would be Mead.

Tai

[Moonshae]

The recipe I like doesn't use any malt at all, just honey and hops.

That would be Mead.

Tai

It's not mead. Mead has no hops, and this (honey beer) is carbonated and has a lower alcohol content.

[ooptec]

Hey,

I did a 30% ethanol (everclear 190 proof) extraction by weight.

And is quite strong tasting so I don't anticipate that will require so much that there will be an appreciable starting OH%

Say 5% OH at finish is (23L batch) 23000ml X 0.05 = 1150ml OH
So the 125ml of tincture should have little or no effect

The one thought that I have is that the propolis will kill the yeast. So to test I made a small starter. Today I will transfer a batch from primary to secondary and reserve the dregs. Using a small amount to try out the starter w/the propolis tincture added and the rest to pitch if all goes well, which I am 85% sure it will    lol    but I've been wrong before.

BTW Herbed or spiced mead is metheglin

Minute changes planned for this batch, will start this batch off the dregs of prev.

2 Kg (4.4lbs) Pale DME
650 g (1 Can. Pint aka 2C) Honey
125ml 30% propolis tincture added when pitching yeast
1 tbsp Irish Moss 15 mins.

Wyeast1056 American Ale

Boil Time 15 Minutes
Ferment temp 13°C (55°F)

Sparge into as cold as poss. H2O

Taste when done and beauty is can adjust bitterness by adding more when bottling ..... or now I think for a second (genius of given enuf time    lol) could add all tincture at end, but will try fermenting w/it if started is OK. Also if added tincture to boiling solution ya'd think most of the OH would boil off leaving just the propolis.

But for this one I will keep the carrier OH in tincture to make sure the solution will not separate it out  (Maybe???maybe over-thinking    lol)

Keep ya in the loop

cheers

peter

[BAStallard]

How much water are you using in all 3 gal or 5 gal batch? I would also add some kind of whole grain malted barley to the mix.

[ooptec]

Hey BAStallard,

I always make 23L batches or prob. 22L in a 23L glass carboy (headspace)

I have been brewing beer for 23+ years and started like most w/kits and dextrose, then adding hops ..... than malt extract in lieu of dex ....... then part grain ........ then all grain and then grew my own hops.

I have made dark, red, inky dark, pale and all hues of beer, porter, stout in between.

After the whole process I am now an all extract brewer using pale DME, crystal and pale syrups and leaf hops all I buy bulk. It seems that pale beer is what I was weaned and developed a taste on and is the most popular w/others around here.

My theory being life is as hard as ya make it    lol

Sometimes I will get a 23L pail of crystal malt syrup and add some for a change, but out and broke so pales for now.

Ales in fall till freeze hard (13°C -55°F) Wyeast 1056 American Ale  then lager (5°C 40°F) WYeast 201 Pilsen Urquel Lager as shop main I keep at that temp. and shop up is my office @ 21°C(22°F) (hip roof)

To further save $$ I keep the yeast strains on agar-malt petri dishes on off season as I usually plan for 8 full Cornelius kegs in spring when the snow melts and signals the end of beer making season and start of the outside pursuits.

That's my modus operendi, but like most things

"There are no truths
        There are no facts
               It's all a matter of
                        STYLE"

Just transferred to primary and collected dregs so will know tomorrow whether the propolis honey ale is a 'GO'


cheers

peter

[BAStallard]

Your receipe looks good, I've found my best beers/ales came from experimenting what does propolis add anyway, I've never tasted it before next time I scrape some I'll try it.

[ooptec]

Hey,

Hops are added to beer not only for their flavor but their anti-microbial properties. Propolis is anti-microbial as well and has a pleasant taste not unlike hops.

So I am trying for a 'bee real ale'     lol

cheers

peter

[taipantoo]

The recipe I like doesn't use any malt at all, just honey and hops.
$21CAN is 21 Canadian dollars, not $21/can. :P

That would be Mead.

Tai

Sorry, I didn't think before I wrote.

From Wikipedia:

Mead variants

    * Braggot â€" Braggot (also called bracket or brackett). Originally brewed with honey and hops, later with honey and malt â€" with or without hops added.








    * Braggot â€" Braggot (also called bracket or brackett). Originally brewed with honey and hops, later with honey and malt â€" with or without hops added.

[fcderosa]

Actually honey and hops is a braggot,  tastes great young - not so good old.

Hops doesn't make a beer, the grain does.  Hops only adds flavor as will honey.  The malted grain allows, at a certain tempature, for the conversion of the starches into sugar.  Sugar as well as other nutreants feed the yeast which convert to c02 and alchohal.  The malt extract added from kits is actually adding the grain.  Unmalted grains/mashes may be cooked however the malted grains must always be added for the starch/sugar conversion to take place.  Same for whisky as it is for beer.

Meads as in other wines do not require a conversion as the sugars (not starch) are present and fermentable.  Braggot is considered in the mead family.

There's a bit more to it, but that's basically it. :-D

[BMAC]

Peter I think you are on to something.  A friend and I discussed this exact concept about 1 year ago while we were driving out to the local beer competition.  We also talked about culturing the natural yeast found in honey to use as our yeast source.  So in effect it was 100% pure unprocessed beer.  Well unprocessed in the sense that we would still use malted grains.  Well of course once we were done with it, it would be considered processed..........

[fcderosa]

Were you going to malt your own grain? :)

[ooptec]

Hey,

Update

Tried the propolis in a 'starter' and went so it won't interfere (at all/enuf?) to prevent fermentation.

However it louches when add the tincture to a finished brew which BTW tasted GREAT.

I filled a couple of beer bottles and added 1/2tsp. of the tincture and it does clear w/time, but by the propolis settling out so that's no good to me.

Have two alternate methods I'll try.

One - that hops is not soluble (rotone shape) but the boil changes the 'structure' so perhaps boiling raw powdered propolis might do it.

Two - that if you adjust th Ph of the tincture to between 5.8 to 6.4 w/bicarb of soda makes it much more water soluble.

I suppose the first is the one I'll try initially as if it doesn't work I can always do the latter when transferred to kegs.

Now just have to figure out how much???

Also as an aside, made a 'ginger beer' w/2.2lbs. of fresh grated ginger/23L and quite alcoholic,

Ginger Beer

3 Kg Pale DME
1 oz  Kent Goldings  (2 min.)
1  lemon juice ½ zest
1 lime juice ½ zest
1 Tbsp. Irish moss
1 Kg  Fresh ginger root, grated (YES 2.2#)
WYeast 201 Pilsen Urquel Lager

Total Boil 60 minutes
Add 3/4 of the ginger, all the lemon juice (minus zest)
Irish moss last 15 mins.
Add rest of ginger, 55 minutes in. (last 5 mins)
Hops and zest for the last 2 minutes.
Sparge into as cold as water as possible. Cool down to 70 â€" 75°F and pitch yeast. After 10-16 hours transfer to 40 â€" 45°F and lager till done.


I'd bet propolis added to it would be even more outstanding

cheers 

peter

[BMAC]

Were you going to malt your own grain? :)

Well.  We have considered it. 

Then we thought.  Awe the heck with it.