A question about the bees in cluster

[annette]

I know when the bees start to cluster they are between the bottom supers (I have 3 mediums making up the hives) They start to eat the honey in the bottom first, then end up on top as winter progresses.

I mean sometimes they may still have food down below or on the sides, but since they are on top already, they never go back down again.

If they are on top and they break cluster and start to fly out due to warmer weather, will they cluster back where they were, on top, or will they start from the bottom again.

Hope this doesn't sound to silly.

I am asking because here in Placerville, the weather is such that the bees will constantly break cluster due to warm days in between really cold days. Was wondering where the cluster ends up each time after they have broken up.

Thank you
Annette

[Finsky]

I mean sometimes they may still have food down below or on the sides, but since they are on top already, they never go back down again.

If they are on top and they break cluster and start to fly out due to warmer weather, will they cluster back where they were, on top, or will they start from the bottom again.

Hope this doesn't sound to silly.

I am asking because here in Placerville, the weather is such that the bees will constantly break cluster due to warm days in between really cold days. Was wondering where the cluster ends up each time after they have broken up.

I thought that you have sumemr in California but you really have late autumn. http://www.wunderground.com/US/CA/Placerville.html

We have here in Finland  nera freezing point. Snow melted away.

Yes, bees have an system that they store honey up and below stores they have brood area. They start wintering where they had last brood.

Most of my bees are clustered in the top store, - or against front wall from bottom to upper entrance.

When I put them in wintering condition, I put brood frames in lower store and then give them 20 kg sugar as syrup.

It seems that bees have not reed any books.

Wintering in California and in Alaska or Finland is very different.

That cluster - Yes, My bees has opened their cluster because they have warm there. Again, they have not read their lessons.

Was wondering where the cluster ends up each time after they have broken up.

In warm days or when bees are disturbed, cluster widdens and bees can take food from perifheria.

During  long hard frost period cluster does not move and then it may starve to death if food  finishes in site.

Hard frost means here from 0F to -20F and long period  one  1-1,5 month. High short peak frosts are not dangerous, like one week.

They never return ???

When you look into hive after winter, bees have consumed most food from lower store even iff they had cluster in high store.  It demans that cluster is so big that it occupie another store during warm weather.

What we learn about winter clustering:

The most important thing, at least here is that don't leave to bees extra space. Heat of cluster only escapes to vain space and moisture condensates on combs. Even if food is capped, moisture goes into cells and food start to swell out. That bees lick and get water too. If swelling food exist too much, bees will get sick, even a big colony.







.

[Michael Bush]

>I know when the bees start to cluster they are between the bottom supers (I have 3 mediums making up the hives) They start to eat the honey in the bottom first, then end up on top as winter progresses.

I have seldom seen that.  They usually start at the top and end at the top, here.  And that is with bottom entrances or top entrances.  But IF they start at the bottom, they do usually end up at the top.

>I mean sometimes they may still have food down below or on the sides, but since they are on top already, they never go back down again.

Sometimes.  And sometimes they starve like that here.  In California, unless you're pretty high up in the mountains, that seems doubtful.  They will rearrange stores whenever they break cluster.

>If they are on top and they break cluster and start to fly out due to warmer weather, will they cluster back where they were, on top, or will they start from the bottom again.

Probably they will stay wherever they've been clustering and rearrange the stores.

>I am asking because here in Placerville, the weather is such that the bees will constantly break cluster due to warm days in between really cold days. Was wondering where the cluster ends up each time after they have broken up.

Probably in the same place but they will move the honey around on a warm day.

[annette]

Thank you Michael. I would never have imagined that they would rearrange the stores at this time of year. This makes me feel better that they are placing the stores where they are clustering. Less chance of starving.

But now this brings me to another question. I was depending on the honey being on the top super so on a warmer day I could just take a peak inside to see if they have enough to eat. With this new information that they could actually move the honey around, the honey may be down below and I would not know this. So I might look and not see any  honey on top, or less honey on top and think they are close to starving when actually they may have moved the honey down below.

I know what most of you are going to say - I need to lift the hive and feel the weight. So I keep lifting all through the winter.  Problem is, I am not strong enough to lift the hive.

Let me know.

Thanks
Annette

[Finsky]

So I keep lifting all through the winter. 

That is vain and only disturbs colonies. You should have so much food that it is enough for 4 month.

[annette]

Here in relatively warmer Placerville, we need only about 35 lbs of honey to get the hive through the winter. Last year, they did not even finish that much.  But with the weather constantly going from freezing to warm days, I know they can really go through the stores. Randy Oliver told me I need to start checking the food stores by Feb around this area.

I know it is important to check the food supply as winter progresses.

Annette

[Finsky]

we need only about 35 lbs of honey to get the hive through the winter. Last year, they did not even finish that much. 


I know it is important to check the food supply as winter progresses.

Very strange. You give minimum food storage and then you are afraid all the time that is is not enough.
I check only in autumn when I feed them with syrup. I use bath room balance in weighing.

I give so much that I need not worry at all.
They consume sugar storages before next honey yield. I even hives' storages during spring.
I have never been broud of that how little they consume winter food. They consume only what they need.

[Michael Bush]

In Placerville, California the average low in January is 33 F.  The average high in January is 58 F.  The record high in January is 75 F and the record low in January is 9 F.  The weather could set off brood rearing and burn through a lot of stores or not and they won't need 35 pounds of honey for the winter.  They don't actually HAVE winter by my standards since you could feed them all winter at those temperatures.  They will be flying often all winter.

http://www.weather.com/outlook/driving/interstate/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USCA0876?from=36hr_bottomnav_driving

[Brian D. Bray]

In Placerville, California the average low in January is 33 F.  The average high in January is 58 F.  The record high in January is 75 F and the record low in January is 9 F.  The weather could set off brood rearing and burn through a lot of stores or not and they won't need 35 pounds of honey for the winter.  They don't actually HAVE winter by my standards since you could feed them all winter at those temperatures.  They will be flying often all winter.

http://www.weather.com/outlook/driving/interstate/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/USCA0876?from=36hr_bottomnav_driving

That's a very important point, geography (even locally) can very a lot in temperatures, rainfall, days of sun per year, etc.  That's why what works in one place doesn't work someplace else.  Climate, as affected by geography (topogrraphy?), requires different approaches and solutions.  Where I live, on an Island, the climate is just different enough from the mainland 10 miles away that I have to use slightly different tactics.

[Finsky]

They don't actually HAVE winter by my standards since you could feed them all winter at those temperatures.  They will be flying often all winter.

I understand well the California winter. However bees seems to need good storages over that period because they do not get enough food from nature.

Food consumption may be huge if bees get pollen and they raise brood. In August our bees raise winter bees but there are few flowers in nature any more.  If weathers are bad as last autumn , hive consume 30 lbs honey per month = 1 lbs per day. In October they spend 1 lbs per month. In late winter they again have brood and consupmtion raises.

Of course every one must know, what bees spend all year around.

Many professionals take honey yield away as soon as possible and save honey that 20-30 lbs per hive . They start to feed bees already in the beginning of August. I start a month later.

In spring I keep at least one month food storages in hives. It is balance with laying space and extra sugar will not move to early  yield.

I inspect in spring hives so that I look under inner cover. If I do not see capped food in upper parts of frames, storages are too low.

.

[Cindi]

Annette, no need to lift hives frequently at all. It is probably disturbing to the bees.  When you lift to check for the weight, you don't lift the entire hive, only the back or the front, and don't lift it up high.  Just lift a tiny bit, only now and then, if you think they may have issues with starvation.  You will feel immediately if the hive is heavy or light.  There may have been some confusion with this I see.  Have a wonderful and great day, Cindi

[annette]

I know I will have to stay on top of this because I have seen just the other day, new bees doing orientation flights during a warmer period of the day. So the queen is indeed laying. I am going to open up the top quickly during the next warmer sunny day and take a peak.

I will also try to lift one end and feel the weight.
Thank you all the help and advice. I will post later on what I am experiencing with all of this.

Annette

[annette]

Ok, just opened up the covers and took a peak on both hives.  A bit chilly today and had second thoughts about doing this. One hive had a small cluster of bees sitting on the top super. They never moved away even when I gently smoked them. Anyway, looked down in the super and low and behold, saw 10 frames of totally capped honey not even eaten.(well, of course I could only see the tops and partially down into the super) Same for the other hive.

So I am feeling pretty good now about them having enough food for the rest of the winter. I will do another check like this in about a month on a warmer day.

Thanks guys for all the help
Have a wonderful holiday season
Annette

[Angi_H]

I was reading one of the bee books and they had said when you check honey stores on warm day in temperate climates like here in Ca to move empty frames away From the cluster and move full frames of stores closer to the cluster that way they dont have to break from clustering to go get food from far away. I know we have had frost in the 30s some nights but in the 58's to 60s during the day. Cold nights and warm days. Is that a good thing to do this book was written in 1991/

Angi

[Cindi]

Angi, just because the book was written in 1991 means nothing.  Bees have not changed much in thousands of years.  Beekeeping practices have, but what the bees need has not.  The bees need accesss to food in the wintertime. If you can get in the hive and see that there is an empty frame, move that frame away and put a honey frame close to the cluster, that is good practice.  The bees need to be in as close contact to food as possible.  If the cluster is big enough, they can move to the food, but if the cluster is smaller, then it is easier for them if the food is moved closer to them.  It is good to have strong, big clusters of bees in wintertime, better warmth overall.  Great day, great life.  Cindi

[annette]

I was reading one of the bee books and they had said when you check honey stores on warm day in temperate climates like here in Ca to move empty frames away From the cluster and move full frames of stores closer to the cluster that way they dont have to break from clustering to go get food from far away. I know we have had frost in the 30s some nights but in the 58's to 60s during the day. Cold nights and warm days. Is that a good thing to do this book was written in 1991/

Angi

Unless it is a nice warm day I personally would not play around inside the hive to much. Here the bees are constantly breaking cluster and can move around all over the hive if they want. MB says that with the warmer climate we have here, the bees can move the food anywhere they want to in the hive. But it sounds like it could be a good idea if the weather is nice and warm.

Thanks for sharing the info
Annette