What "race" are Minnesota Hygenics?

[Sir Stungalot]

I have some and have not been super thrilled with them. I was told they might be Russian crosses. Poor (near none) honey production last year and weak weak weak hives. I feel like all I am doing is feeding a bunch of free-loaders. I look at them  and they appear darker than my Italians. I am kinda hoping that over the next year or two they will sort of "go away" by crossing with my Italians... a couple of hives look more Italian now anyway. They were superceeded several times last year. Maybe I just have a bad batch of them (10 hives)and should not judge all M.H's by these losers, ha ha. 
Anyway, anyone know the backround of M.H.'s? I do not think I have ever seen/heard anyone mention this.

[Cindi]

Sir Stungalot (I still like your handle, it is funnneeee).  I think that there are some forum members that have this breed of bees, I have some vague recollection of posts.  That is a total bummer about your colonies.  How many do you have that you are not thrilled with?  I think that you should requeen with some proven stock queens.  That would be what I would do.

I have Kona Italian queens and Carniolan.  When I purchased my 4 nucs (I also purchased 4 packages) and had 1 overwintered Carniolan hive, the breeder told me that the Kona Italians loved to raise brood and were not huge honey gatherers.  He was correct.  They built up like mad, and I dont' think that they gathered an awful lot of honey.  It was a terrible year for the honey flow anyways, so maybe I should blame the season, but his words were remembered every time I saw how little honey was stored.

I am going to requeen all these colonies this year, I am just not too sure when.  I want to have queens that have wonderful traits. 

In our British Columbia there is a program called the BCBBP.  They have been developing queens for the attributes that are most desirable, and so far they are doing pretty good.  They are ahead of their schedule.  I am considering obtaining some queens from this program, but am still undecided about what I am going to do.

I have two colonies that have consistently all summer long and into fall been outstanding in most aspects, even with regard to varroa mite.  I may use larvae from these colonies to raise some queens, but I am still in the undecided stage.  I am still learning so much with the bees, that I don't yet feel 100% comfortable in successful queen rearing, so that may be for another year, time will tell that tale.

Good luck with the answers to your queery, it will be interesting to see responses to your post.  Have a great and wonderful day, Cindi

[TwT]

they were here before the Russian bee's,  Minnesota Hygienics are italians from what I have heard,

[Michael Bush]

Any race can be bred for hygienic behavior, but the ones that Marla Spivak has been breeding are Italians.  I've had some that were wonderful, gentle and productive.  I've heard others say they got some that were foul tempered but that has not been my most recent experience.

[tig]

hi cindi,

     i'm presuming you mean queens from kona queens in hawaii?  if so, i find it strange because i get my queens from them too and i find their carniolans and italians to be very good for honey althought i find that the carniolans are better in brood rearing.  because the carniolans raise more brood, their colonies end up a bit stronger than the italians and so make a bit more honey.  the best queens i get from them are the tiger striped ones because they produce the most brood, pollen and honey but are the most agressive but not to the point of being unmanageable.  a little smoke will make them behave enough so it's just a matter of knowing which boxes have the tiger striped queens.

    as i've mentioned before, usually colonies that have some aggresion are better overall producers and defend their homes against other predators. those are the colonies i select for honey production.

    i've had a couple of those Minnesota Hygenics and they also didn't make any honey.  i still have about 10 of those queens and even now when the nectar flow has started, i've had to feed them sugar syrup because their bees are almost starving!  it's dismaying to open the kona boxes and see 4-6 frames of honey then go over to those Minnesota Hygenics and find them starving!  BTW:  all those Minnesota Hygenics have chalkbrood which speaks volumns about their hygenic behavior!

[Brian D. Bray]

i've had a couple of those Minnesota Hygenics and they also didn't make any honey.  i still have about 10 of those queens and even now when the nectar flow has started, i've had to feed them sugar syrup because their bees are almost starving!  it's dismaying to open the kona boxes and see 4-6 frames of honey then go over to those Minnesota Hygenics and find them starving!  BTW:  all those Minnesota Hygenics have chalkbrood which speaks volumns about their hygenic behavior!

I've noticed that too.  Or they don't like to build comb.  My MHs have done some of the weirdest things with comb building you can imagine.

[tig]

mine just ate the foundation!  lmao!

[Cindi]

Tig, yes, the Kona queens come from Hawaii.  I bought my nucs on May 4 or 5 (approximately).  That was when he had the nucs available.  I have no clue.

I distinctly remember this man telling me that they are wonderful brood producers and not great for the honey storage.  I think that I am going to e-mail him and ask him why he said that.  They are Italian.  I know Italians are great honey producers, so I have no clue why he said that.  Rather strange.  When that comment was made to me, I told him that if they loved to raise brood, it was 100% OK with me anyways.  This past season was my season for building up for the next year.  I was not interested in honey production, any honey would have been a bonus -- brood production, my gig.  And that they did.  They were extremely prolific.

But then.....so was that teeny tiny Carniolan colony that I babied and overwintered with the terrarium heater last year.  They built up fantastically and had made swarm preparations.  At that point I made a cut down split from that colony, they raised a new queen and then a couple of months later, swarmed in early September.  They are swarmy, very obviously, but then, I would think from so many things that that means that they are building up enormous colonies and need to split up themselves (hee, hee).  So......I get pretty confused about this stuff.  Swarmy colonies, big colonies, hmmm.....still so much to learn.

I would imagine that the 2 colonies that came from the mother Carniolan colony are Carniolans.  They had drones present late late into the fall, they could be mutts, the Italians all live next door, but one just plain and simply doesn't know.  I am going into this season with two queens born in the late summer and fall, so they will be good for this season.  I just really need to watch for their swarmy nature.  These Carniolan colonies do not bung up their hives with propolis, like the Kona Italian queen hives.  That was very clear to see.  Very nice, clean colonies, very, very little propolis sticking things all up. The Kona Italians had so much propolis that my fingers were always gummed up when I worked with them, very yucky, all the time.  Well, now that can be good too I guess.

All the Kona Italian hives will be requeened this year.  I am after honey (and of course, great building up for next year).  Funny, how we as the keeper of bees, must thing ahead.  I have gone into the winter with enormous colonies, that will be great for the next season (not that far away now).  When, that I have not quite got firm into my mind yet.  I am hearing to requeen after the first honeyflow (that would be blueberry and blackberry, bringing us to the end of June), before the first honeyflow.  Hearing different opinions, so again, I am just not too sure about things such as that idea of when to requeen.  (maybe someone could enlighten me here).

By February 1 here, the bees are beginning with big time brood rearing.  They will receive their first pollen patty around this time.

When I examine the hives at this time, I will see who is rearing the larger number of brood and those will be marked.  It will be interesting to see who is who is my zoo.

Well, this has turned into a long post, just can't seem to help that sometimes, I am carried away, just like the wind.  Have a beautiful and wonderful day.  Cindi

(Did I miss any point that was to be discussed in this topic?  Got lost here.....).  C.

[KONASDAD]

I have two hives worth and they are very productive and gentle. Huge brood patterns, lots of build-up and lots of burr comb too. One superceded and this hive was awesome last year. I have also added three hives worth of purvis and am awaiting spring to see how they do. I will leave one of each in my yard and move the other three somewere else in all likelihood.

[Sir Stungalot]

Tig, that is so funny! I was inspecting my MH's yesterday and there were big eaten out holes in the foundation too!  I was scratching my head over that one! I have seen small holes from time to time in other hives but big, whoppin' holes? Never...untill now. Same thing as you with honey production (I mean lack of production). I pop my Italian hives and they have plenty of stores...I amble over to the M.H.'s and all they have is a lot of nothing. I have had to feed these turkeys since July! The only time they made any honey was at the begining of the big spring flow, then they promtply ate it all back up...right down to the last cell.

Brian...same here...they NEVER want to build comb unless it is in a bad, weird place. Last summer I forgot to put in a frame in the the brood box at the end. My brain was malfunctioning from the heat or something.
In Sept. I opened the box and found a beautifull, empty, strange (shaped like the state of California) section of comb where the missing frame should have been. I was able to simply pop it off the side of the box and then, in a moment of insanity, I spray painted it metalic gold and made a clock out of it. That wax clock is the ONLY thing of "value" I have gotten from 10 hives of M.H.'s, lol.

Cindi... I often think about re-queening these hives BUT (!) I paid a lot of money for them and for some reason I INSIST they will earn their keep. I know that is simply bad management on my part but I figure I am doing something wrong, SURELY they will get their act togeather at some point...sigh...probably not.

Michael and TWT....I guess I just did not make the connection with these MH's to Italians...they just seem so...different. They look "wrong" and for sure act like something else. I had a few hives of Russian crosses and I did not like them at all either. These hives are much more like them. Perhaps I have MH's that are crossed out too. I guess that is why I hesitate to condem all MH's based on these welfare loosers. I have zero way of knowing for sure their backround.

Here is an example of these dumb bees. This summer I was changing out eqpt.- needed to retire some rotting junk. I pulled all frames out of the old brood nest, put them in the new box. I tossed the old cover, bottom and rotted box off to the side. Some bees were on this eqpt. and I knew they would shortly find their way back to the new box.  I took a break for an hour or so, to let the gallons of sweat dry out of my suit. I went back to collect the rotten garbage to burn it and...sitting there, on the old cover,all by her self...was the QUEEN!  WHAT?!? Not a single worker stayed with her! They flew home! I could not believe what I was seeing. I picked her up and set her back in the hive. She crawled back in  and went back to her business, like no big deal. Can you imagine workers simply abandoning their Queen? She was a very large, well formed Queen too.  Go figure.

Anyway, thanks for the info...MH=Italian.

[tig]

cindi, the kona queens, either italian or carniolan strain are notorious for swarming!  i think it has to do with their sudden build up, specially those carniolans which are triggered by the sudden influx of pollen.  september, october and november are my swarming months because thats when pollen comes in very heavily.  i've had colonies that start from 4 frames jump to 10 frames in less than a month once that pollen starts coming. 

i would check with the guy you spoke to from kona queens as to why he claimed what he did. i don't know of any queen breeder that breeds only for brood.  honey is usually the main objective aside from other desirable traits such as gentleness and good housecleaning behavior among othert things.

[Brian D. Bray]

Kona queens are grown in a tropical climate.  How they behave and perform in the climate differences between B.C. Canada and the Philipines would be a world of difference. 

I liken the MH pretty much with the same undesireable charateristics as the Caucasians I used to have back in the 1960's.  Eating the comb and making wierd comb designs.

[NWIN Beekeeper]

Minnesota Hygienic Queens come from the Italian species.
They are a variety of Italians that Marla Spivak of Unv. of Minn. has been developing.
This variety varies from plain Italians in that they are selected based on hygienic characteristics.

A hygienic colony of bees will removed dead or infected larvae from the colony.

To keep the hygienic genetics within this RECESSIVE line can be difficult.  It requires that both the mother queen and the mating drone BOTH have the genes for the trait.  Else, the trait diminishes by half for only one carrier. It is also a flip of a coin if the characteristics return if a half-hygienic queen is mated to a full hygienic drone.

This is different than the Russian (SMR) line that carries a DOMINATE genetic line.  Keeping the Russian genetic line is easier, but still requires an understanding.  Imagine that there are 5 genetic parking spaces. If both Mother and Mating Drones carry the genes, all 5 spots are filled (highly hygienic).  If only one is, then 3 spots are taken (moderately hygienic).  If a half rus. queen and a feral drone mate, there maybe 2 spaces taken (slightly hygienic).  You can see the line is more residual, and recovers with the reintroduction of the pure species.

Marla spoke last spring about working the SMR genetics into the hygienic line. At that point, the concern was maintaining good honey crops while blending the lines.  I had the impression the results were mixed. It was refreshing to see that the Minn. Hygienic line was more than just a project bee, the intent was (and still is) to produce a line of bees for the beekeeping community.

Keep in mind that while one line may sound ideal from a genetic stand point, their performance in your locality my be less than your expectations. Russian bees tend to shut down for dearths (or even during false-dearths) and Italians can eat you from house and home in northern climates if your winter runs long.

One must select bees upon the whole picture.

-Jeff

[Brian D. Bray]

NWIN Beekeeper, every time I see your avatar I can't help but think of Bruce Willis.  Die Hard, rah.

[tig]

yes hawaii has a tropical climate and it would adapt very easily to ours here in the philippines.  i like the carniolans much better though because of their frugal nature during dearth periods which we have for 6 months during the rainy season.

[NWIN Beekeeper]

Brian-

"Yippie Ke Ey  - Beekeepers"

Everyone else:

I belong to a lot of different forums around the country and it gives me a very wide perspective about opinions of bee species (beyond my own readings and experiences). What I find interesting is one person can post a specific instance where the bees did something unusual and a couple dozen other people post the same happened to them once. With a few handfuls of rare occasions, people begin to construe that these odd behaviors are the normal for that species.

Be cautious, if you do beekeeping long enough you're likely to see all sorts of behaviors regardless the species of bees.  This is because the bee's results are likely caused from other conditions in the hive.

While its wasteful to list every condition that cause the bees to chew combs, one should consider the likely reason why they might.  Wax is only produced in certain conditions (enough flow and high enough temps).  When these conditions aren't met, wax isn't produced (but it doesn't mean that wax isn't needed).  In these times of wax dearth, they will chew and move the wax to areas it is needed. This is obviously seen when dark combs are placed next to fresh foundations at the start of a flow, the resulting new cells on the new foundation will often be at least tinted if not the same color as the adjacent wax source.

What would be interesting to explore is why certain locations are selected, is it wax temp, quality, composition? Is it chosen because of the previous cell type or ease of future repair? These are things of the 'bee mind' we might never understand.

I am not downplaying that MN Hyg. bees could chew more than other species and here's why.
The hygienic characteristic ends to be community affair, multiple bees pulling out disease and disposing of it. These acts require communication between both sides of the combs. Rather than constantly crawling around the combs to communicate this information, the smart bees might just as well chew a hole through the comb.  Being that one can see this as compromising brood area and/or honey stores, to minimize this one can be sure to include communication holes through the foundation edge.  One should also be sure that the bee space between frame tops and bottoms is correct.  Sometimes not realizing, we can use frames brands and box styles that are incompatible (some have top bee space, others have a bottom bee space, and boxes can have varying depth frame ledges (some anticipate the use of metal frame rails and are a little deeper - causing frames to sit lower if the metal is not used). 

This is an example that the results one sees is likely because of a (wrong) hive condition, it is not the norm.   It also shows how it is important to try to understand why things happen and not just curse the results.

[Michael Bush]

>Be cautious, if you do beekeeping long enough you're likely to see all sorts of behaviors regardless the species of bees.

Exactly.

[Cindi]

NWIN Beekeeper.  That was some very interesting points that you just spoke about, good reading.  Have a wonderful day.  Cindi

[Brian D. Bray]

Bees are most likely to build comb from mid-spring until late summer.  They can be coaxed to build at other times with feeding a light syrup, with the exception of about the last 2 weeks before clustering begins.  I am very aware that bees can do some weird things at times for reasons of their own however, I Had Caucasian bees for about 8 years (60-68) and observed their habits on comb over that period.  They were consistant about creating holes in the center or combs you could pass a baseball through and notorious for eating around the wires in the foundation (using crimp wired foundation was nearly impossible).  They also built scads of burr comb.  They seemed to like tear holes in the frames and build burr comb everywhere.  Every Hive of Caucasians I had acted the same way--I would call that a strain trait. 

I'm seeing the same kind of behavior in MH bees although I haven't had them long enough to decide if it is a consistant trait.  I'm of a mind to stay clear of them because I don't feeling like going through the same frusatration I had with the Caucasians. 

I want bees that are hygenic in nature, good foragers, has good brood patterns, and will draw comb when they need it.  I go foundationless, all medium 8 frames, and have developed my own equipment designs as to slatted racks, screened bottoom boards, and top entrances.  I try to use as close as natural management methods as is possible with modern equipment.

[Cindi]

Brian, I am curious here.  I would say that the Causasian bees that you kept for 8 years had some very undesirable traits with the holes in the foundation thing.  Did they have some other traits that were so excellent that you overlooked the destructive nature?  Or am I reading something wrong here. Beautiful day, great life.  Cindi