bee load pollen vs larvae feed

malabarchillin · February 03, 2008, 12:03:54 PM

Has anyone read how many larvae can be fed from 1 'bee load' of pollen ?
For the last few days/week my Maple trees have been in heavy bloom and flight ops are aprox 75% pollen foragers with temps in the high 70's. Still no drones flying. I am getting a little concerned that they may get strong enough to swarm before my March queen gets here so I can split. If I feed 1:1 syrup would that make them more inclined to swarm early? I am about 5 weeks from a split.
Thanks
Mike

Jerrymac · February 03, 2008, 12:06:53 PM

Why would you want to feed? If they run out of room they are more likely to swarm.

malabarchillin · February 03, 2008, 12:16:43 PM

I have not looked lately to see how much room they have. I run 1 deep plus I have a recently extracted super on top that they were suppose to clean. I left the super to give them more room, but I hope that they do not move the brood up there. I only have 1 hive and hoped to maximize the amount of 'stores' that I can use to split in 5 weeks. Everyone seems to feed to stimulate early brood. With no drones flying I am hoping they will not swarm without drones present ?
Opinions are definitely welcome.
Mike

Michael Bush · February 03, 2008, 02:04:00 PM

I never thought about it in those terms. But a frame of pollen and a frame of honey and the equivalent amount of water is what it takes to raise one frame of brood.

JP · February 03, 2008, 02:09:50 PM

Mike, winter is not over just yet and if you do get some cold spells, the extra space in the above super will mean the bees will have to work that much harder to keep warm, of course unless you get no winter fronts. I would check the top super to see what's going on with it, if its still pretty empty, I would remove it. At the same time you could check the bottom deep for honey stores. I would not feed them unless they have no stores, as Jerry has mentioned, if you feed them and they actively build more comb into the second deep or the first, and run out of room to expand they will swarm.

.....JP

NWIN Beekeeper · February 03, 2008, 03:45:38 PM

[Why would you want to feed?]

This frees more bees to forage for more pollen.

More pollen results in better fed bees.
Better fed bees survive all sorts of weather better.

This should also result in more brood and stimulate hygienic behaviors.
Improved hygienic behaviors decreases disease and the likelihood of failure.
Feeding also helps to flush disease from the bees gut.

This all assumes that you aren't feeding wet syrups that dampen the cluster and freeze them (if you have freezing weather).

While chilled brood is an issue, if an unfortunate frost gets them, the bees will clean out the cells and start over (an unfortunate situation, but I feel it is worth the risk - trust your bees, they know what they are doing more often then we do).

On the issue of premature swarming, you appear on top of your game. By splitting or opening up area in the brood nest you will head most of this off. Or you will build to a level to split earlier (which is also probably desirable).

One misconception is that bees eat pollen alone. There are a number of components in pollen that must be diluted in honey/nectar before they are at safe levels for consumption. Some nutrients aren't released at all (some enzymes) until the pollen is fermented into bee-bread. Fermenting by the right bacteria also eliminates many of the bad bacteria too. By feeding, you increase the availability of usable pollen/sugar for the brood and colony consumption.

Jerrymac · February 03, 2008, 04:56:55 PM

Quote from: NWIN Beekeeper on February 03, 2008, 03:45:38 PM
[Why would you want to feed?]
This frees more bees to forage for more pollen.

I asked the question because of two things. One being malabarchillin was worried about swarming. If the bees fill up the hive with syrup then they just might swarm. Would be no room for more brood and all the other stuff you mentioned.

Two is the fact that malabarchillin lives in Florida and I thought there was always something blooming in Florida. Why pollute you honey with sugar syrup?

rdy-b · February 03, 2008, 05:17:39 PM

when you split you will need frames of brood -very hard to tell you what to do Enless i know how many frames of brood and how many frames of bees are in the box right now-your target date for queens is 5 weeks -brood will hatch ( egg to caped cell) in about 4 weeks -figure your resources and set a time line -you may be able to split it in three -if you have the resources-bringing them to the brink of a swarm right before -and then split-Yes you may need to stimulate to get these resources -your call -And to make one bee it takes one full cell of pollen -I dont know how many Loads it takes to fill a cell 8-) RDY-B

malabarchillin · February 03, 2008, 10:10:40 PM

Thank you all for your great replies.
I do not want to increase my risk for a early swarm so I will not feed. My main goal is to split with a bought queen (because of time and risk of AHB drone mating) and let them build up until fall and split to have a total of 3 full size deeps and a nuc. They 'should' be able to build up enough on fall pepper flow to overwinter. I will inspect/inventory the hive this week and probably remove the super on it. Spring is in the air here ! The Maples and Spanish Needles are full of my bees.

Michael Bush · February 04, 2008, 07:43:08 AM

Not feeding so they won't swarm doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I want as many bees as I can going into the flow. The object is always to get more bees while avoiding swarming.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm

pdmattox · February 04, 2008, 08:52:12 AM

I would feed but only after a inspection to make sure the queen has plenty of room to lay. If you have a bunch of plugged out frames then i would remove all but two and put drawn foundation on each side of the brood nest, keeping the brood in the center.It is geeting warmer at night and the bees will spread out very quickly. If you dont have any drawn comb then you can pull a frame that is plugged and place the frame of foundation nex to the brood nest to keep them busy.

NWIN Beekeeper · February 04, 2008, 11:25:41 AM

[It is getting warmer at night and the bees will spread out very quickly.]

And when they are up in the trees they are called swarms Dallas....
you have to go out and get those and put them back in the box.

just kidding Dallas...

I think the big point is being repetitively hit here - keep an open brood nest.

malabarchillin · February 04, 2008, 06:04:31 PM

I just looked in the hive (5:00 PM).
Preface to say I have only been a beek since summer.
I had a really good fall pepper flow, but the amount of bees in the hive now far surpasses the fall flow. Every frame in the single deep is full of bees (except the outsides of the outer frames). They have really eaten a lot of their winter stores. There is a lot (do not have the number of frames) of brood in all stages. There is a lot of new pollen stored. Do they cap pollen ? The brood area looks pretty open. They have enough stores left but I will start feeding them 1:1.
Because all the frames are full of bees I left the super with drawn comb in it to give them room. Again in the fall there were a lot of bees, but there are a lot more in there now. I can not fathom not wearing a full suit at the moment :) In the fall when I inspected there was still room for them to hang out on the frames, but today there was a large amount in the air because of lack of room :) They really over wintered well and maple and spanish needles are really helping them out. There are 2 ponds within 200 feet of them so with all the pollen and nectar coming in they should hopefully split well and grow quickly.
Again thanks for all of your replies.
Mike

Brian D. Bray · February 04, 2008, 11:09:39 PM

QuoteI think the big point is being repetitively hit here - keep an open brood nest.

Exactly. One trick to keeping an open brood nest is to remove the number 2 and 9 frames (of a 10 frames hive0 and replace them with undrawn frames. The bees won't get back into swarm mode until those frames are fully drawn out and the hive is crowded. The way to keep the hive from swarming is to replace those frames repeatedly. It is also a good way to rotate out old comb that way you kill 2 birds with one stone. It is another reason I like 3-4 medium brood boxes per hive. I play musical chairs with frames in the brood chamber all season and as long as it is done at the edge of the chamber it doesn't over disrupt the brood production and can really help in building up a hive without it swarming.