Arrrrgh! We lost 2 hives

Denise · February 04, 2008, 01:23:48 PM

We finally got a day that wasn't (a) pouring (b) snowing or (c) below freezing. I had a bad feeling about at least one of the hives, the Trojans. It was way too quiet. No bodies on the front porch. All bad signs. Same with the Romans. Since the weather was at least somewhat decent with the sun finally coming out I knew it was now or never to take a peek. The Romans starved surrounded by food. That is a sad sight to see. Little bee butts sticking out of the cells and the rest still in cluster. I think they also went queenless as well. What a disaster. The Trojans absconded. Just packed up and left. Bye. They were the ones that had swarmed in the summer of '06 from a wild hive. I guess they just couldn't shake that "wildness" about themselves and decided to move on.

I feel like we failed them somehow. Next winter my hubby wants to be sure and take better measures to keep them warm. We don't usually get cold winters, but it can happen. This year we have gotten much more snow than usual and it actually dipped below freezing for over a week. I think that was what did in the Romans. They just couldn't make it through. *sigh*

Scadsobees · February 04, 2008, 02:58:31 PM

I'm sorry for your losses, i've been through it enough to know how angrifying and disheartening it is.

I've had freezing weather sub 10 here for many days, and mine are still fine this year. The bees can easily handle 30F, even with some brood. Was there brood present? It is possible that they were stuck protecting the brood and couldn't move to the honey. If no brood, then I'd say they didn't die from the cold.

Queenlessness is a death knell. Why do you suspect this? There were probably other things going on. What type of treatments did you use in the fall, and did you notice anything out of the ordinary then, such as crawling bees, curly wing bees etc?

So many question.... :shock:

Rick

Michael Bush · February 04, 2008, 10:03:39 PM

>I feel like we failed them somehow. Next winter my hubby wants to be sure and take better measures to keep them warm. We don't usually get cold winters, but it can happen. This year we have gotten much more snow than usual and it actually dipped below freezing for over a week.

Then you still didn't get a cold winter. I've had bees in -40 F. It's not the cold that kills them although, with a small cluster or one raising brood it can be the last straw. It's wet and starving and running out of enough bees that kills a hive in the winter.

Brian D. Bray · February 04, 2008, 11:21:22 PM

What type of tops and bottoms are you using. It sounds to me like your bees were "rained on" by condensation within the hive and the small cold snap did them in. Vent the hive at the very top and use SBB and that won't happen.

BMAC · February 05, 2008, 09:00:57 AM

So sorry to hear. I just checked on my girls yesterday. Even all the NUCs I am running thru the winter are alive so far. 3 of the 4 actually have brood in them as well. I am kind of expecting the last one to perish though as there is no brood and only 3 frames of bees in there. maybe I am wrong, maybe they will be fine. I will see here in another 4 weeks I suspect.

It was officially 70 degrees yesterday here in the KC area. Woohoo. The girls were doing a nice job with their cleansing flights. :-D

Cindi · February 05, 2008, 10:38:39 AM

Denise, that is a sad day, I feel for you. I know what losses feel like and it really makes ya just not feel good. Try again, next year will be better. The only way to look at this is that is a learning curve.

Like was mentioned with Brian, upper ventilation and Michael comment about the small cluster. These are two of the most important things that I can think of about the winter cluster. Ventilation and cluster size appropriate for the box size. For example, nucs that are full, deeps that are full, or mediums that are full (of bees). If the bees fill the box well enough that they are housed in, then they can maintain that internal heat that allows the cluster to move to the food stores. Very important. They will starve if they cannot move to get their food stores. I have learned so much about the importance of the winter cluster size that it makes my head swim. It is integral for the bees to be in an appropriately sized box.

The beekeepers season for the upcoming year begins in the fall. That means going into the winter with strong, strong colonies, plenty of stores (honey is superior to sugar syrup for feeding, meaning natural food), and healthy bees without pests or disease. This will bring strong colonies for the spring build up, that is what every aim of the beekeeper should be, strong colonies going into winter. Don't give up Denise, keep that chin up and next year will be a better year, remember, we learn the hardest lessons by the mistakes that we make. Still have a wonderful and greatest of days, Cindi

beekeeperookie · February 05, 2008, 10:39:23 AM

i am jealous 70!!!!!!! Wow wish i had your weather right now. I know my girls are itchin to get out the hives. Its finally warm for them to fly but its raining yuk

BMAC · February 05, 2008, 12:06:59 PM

well it ended up being 37 by 8:30pm last night. Just a 1 day repreive. That is enough to peek in though and say hi!

It was pretty impressive with the temp swing. It also allowed me to do much needed work on my truck before my road trip.

It is raining here now with the threat of alot of snow. Wild wild weather.

Denise · February 05, 2008, 03:00:11 PM

I'm pretty sure they went queenless at some point. It was a very small cluster as well. They probably just couldn't keep warm with so few of them. That hive did have very good ventillation. We changed it after last year's debacle with moisture. I was surprised they made it thru with how wet things got last year. We changed over to one of the slatted bottoms and it fixed the problem right away. So at least things were good and dry.
We checked the dead ones over to see if it looked like disease, but didn't see anything telling. There were many of them with their heads in cells. Telltale of starvation. *sigh* We owed them better. I will make up for it by learning from our boo-boos.

Understudy · February 05, 2008, 03:18:48 PM

Quote from: Denise on February 05, 2008, 03:00:11 PM
I'm pretty sure they went queenless at some point. It was a very small cluster as well. They probably just couldn't keep warm with so few of them. That hive did have very good ventillation. We changed it after last year's debacle with moisture. I was surprised they made it thru with how wet things got last year. We changed over to one of the slatted bottoms and it fixed the problem right away. So at least things were good and dry.
We checked the dead ones over to see if it looked like disease, but didn't see anything telling. There were many of them with their heads in cells. Telltale of starvation. *sigh* We owed them better. I will make up for it by learning from our boo-boos.

You are on your way to becoming a fantastic beekeeper.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

BMAC · February 06, 2008, 08:38:07 AM

Quote from: Understudy on February 05, 2008, 03:18:48 PM
Quote from: Denise on February 05, 2008, 03:00:11 PM
I'm pretty sure they went queenless at some point. It was a very small cluster as well. They probably just couldn't keep warm with so few of them. That hive did have very good ventillation. We changed it after last year's debacle with moisture. I was surprised they made it thru with how wet things got last year. We changed over to one of the slatted bottoms and it fixed the problem right away. So at least things were good and dry.
We checked the dead ones over to see if it looked like disease, but didn't see anything telling. There were many of them with their heads in cells. Telltale of starvation. *sigh* We owed them better. I will make up for it by learning from our boo-boos.

You are on your way to becoming a fantastic beekeeper.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

I agree. Learning from ones mistakes is the best educator.

Brian D. Bray · February 06, 2008, 07:03:47 PM

Quote from: Cindi on February 05, 2008, 10:38:39 AM
Denise, that is a sad day, I feel for you. I know what losses feel like and it really makes ya just not feel good. Try again, next year will be better. The only way to look at this is that is a learning curve.

Like was mentioned with Brian, upper ventilation and Michael comment about the small cluster. These are two of the most important things that I can think of about the winter cluster. Ventilation and cluster size appropriate for the box size. For example, nucs that are full, deeps that are full, or mediums that are full (of bees). If the bees fill the box well enough that they are housed in, then they can maintain that internal heat that allows the cluster to move to the food stores. Very important. They will starve if they cannot move to get their food stores. I have learned so much about the importance of the winter cluster size that it makes my head swim. It is integral for the bees to be in an appropriately sized box.

I've found it is better to over winter in a 2 story nuc than a single story 8 or 10 frame hive. I use 8 frame medium equipment exclusively (except for 2 deep nucs that I use as queen raisers) but by overwintering in a 2 story nuc I give them 10 frames and the cluster in the very center and none of the honey is very far from the cluster. A very good way to work with a small hive/cluster/swarm. In the spring I will take my 2 2 story nucs put them into 2 8 frames with 6 drawn frames on the bottom and 1 empty frame on each side and 4 frames in the 2nd box with 2 empty frames on each side. Gives them work to do and instant swarm control due to the open brood chamber.

Cindi · February 07, 2008, 10:01:56 AM

Quote from: Brian D. Bray on February 06, 2008, 07:03:47 PM
In the spring I will take my 2 2 story nucs put them into 2 8 frames with 6 drawn frames on the bottom and 1 empty frame on each side and 4 frames in the 2nd box with 2 empty frames on each side. Gives them work to do and instant swarm control due to the open brood chamber.

Brian that does sound good. I use deeps, all my equipment is deeps. One day they may become 8 framers, but for the time 10 frame deeps. I can still easily lift a deep full of brood and bees. Maybe because I am so close to the ground, hee, hee, I am vertically challenged to a degree, standing 5'2" tall.

There were so many bees in my colonies last fall that there would have been no way on this good green earth that they would have possibly fit into nuc (or even 8 frame boxes). May sound strange, but such was the case, they were overloaded. That was good because it provided a huge winter cluster. Now, I know that I am going to have to really watch these colonies for spring build up because I know they are going to be huge and probably have a high propensity for swarming. I will need to be doing lots of work.

I could have split the colonies before wintertime, but I would have preferred to go into winter with large colonies, less boxes to deal with and then perform splits in the spring.

I am still in big time learning mode, I may find my thoughts over this past winter did not work, but they may too, only time will tell that tale. Have a wonderful and best of this great day, Cindi

poka-bee · February 07, 2008, 09:29:30 PM

Cindi, I'm 5'2" TOO!! I call it vertically challenged also! I've been only looking @ 8 frame just for that reason & I'm not getting any younger + have bad shoulders ( had surgery 10 years ago..worked for awhile) How much heavier & wider are the 10 frame? & won't I have to get more brood boxes & hives w/8's? The bees will do what they do so will they get crowded faster? Yes, last summer sucked..was the summer that wasn't!

Jody

Cindi · February 08, 2008, 09:32:00 AM

Jody, there are advantages to us shorter folk, hee, hee. I think that if I had began beeekeeping using 8 frame boxes, I would have stuck to them. But I have so many deeps. There are many advantages to the 8 frame boxes, and one huge one is weight. They are substantially lighter than the 10 frame deeps, no question about that one. For now, I have to stick with the deeps. But, maybe one year, I will have my poor Husband (yes, he has to do so many carpentry things for me) cut the hives down to the size of 8 frame boxes. I know that my strength will not last forever and a day more. But OK for now. Have a wonderful and great day, lovin' life we live. Cindi

Brian D. Bray · February 08, 2008, 11:57:10 PM

Quote from: poka-bee on February 07, 2008, 09:29:30 PM
Cindi, I'm 5'2" TOO!! I call it vertically challenged also! I've been only looking @ 8 frame just for that reason & I'm not getting any younger + have bad shoulders ( had surgery 10 years ago..worked for awhile) How much heavier & wider are the 10 frame? & won't I have to get more brood boxes & hives w/8's? The bees will do what they do so will they get crowded faster? Yes, last summer sucked..was the summer that wasn't!

Jody

Check out Bushy Mountain's www.bushymountainbeefarm.com item #8241 or #8242 is what you need. If you by the telescopic top (instead of the English Garden Hive item #254) you save neary $40.00. Spend that money on 3 medium supers, frames, and foundation. You'll have every thing you need for the first year for 1 hive. If getting more than 1? Buy the necessary amount.

Since you're in Buckley I would recommend getting it from Western Bee www.westernbee.com in Pulson ,Mt. You shoud be able to buy everything for I've listed for under $100.00 with about $40.00 shipping. Getting that amount shipped from Bushy Mountain will cost at least double. I buy all the woodenware I don't make myself from Western Bee.

poka-bee · February 09, 2008, 01:04:13 PM

Thank YOU! How did you know that I was going to ask about just what I would need? My head is spinning with how many supers, hive bodies.I would rather have more available than not enough, don't want to be scrambling at the last minute for equipment should I need it! I am running up to Trees & Bees this afternoon to look @ what they have & how $$...I hate to pay the gvnr but shipping has gotten so expensive..may find some of what I need there..also order my BEES! I've decided on Russian. Since I've never had bees I won't know if they are a little harder to handle & expect to get stung anyways. I suppose I had better mention this new hobby to my husband...Have a great day!
Jody

Brian D. Bray · February 10, 2008, 01:20:05 AM

I have Russians, you'll like Russians, they do well. You will need to read up on swarm management, especially the parts on keeping an open brood nest.

Michael Bush · February 10, 2008, 12:13:01 PM

You should always have at least one bottom, one lid, and one box of frames that's not in use to hive a swarm or do a swarm prevention split. You should always have a couple of empty boxes with frames for each hive, to add for supers later. When those are gone, order more.

Michael Bush · February 10, 2008, 12:14:31 PM

Oh... also you should always have a couple of empty boxes with NO frames for juggling frames about in the beeyard.