Pollen feeding -- the upmost important thing

Cindi · February 08, 2008, 09:03:42 AM

Now and then I correspond with Finsky, many of you will know him, he has been a long time member, he is not currently active on our forum, but I must spread some word that he now and then gives to me, I have two sites that I would very strongly recommend (these sites are probably already somewhere here on our forum), but they must be brought to the forefront again. We are coming into the season where the bees require lots and lots of pollen to be strong and healthy to be able to feed their larvae, so they can be strong and healthy.

It seems to me that there is an area of pollen discussion that is overlooked. That is feeding pollen to newly packaged bees and nucs. Bees must have sufficient pollen to build up their bodies, particularly to build up strong hypopharyngeal glands (these are the glands that produce royal jelly). There are other functions within the bees that go along with this too, but these are one of the most important glands.

When package bees are hived, the only pollen that they have is what has been stored up in their bodies, their bodies are soon depleted of this product. If they do not have pollen available, then they cannot feed the larvae. We know that the queenright hive will have babies to feed within a few days after hiving the colonies. This goes for nucs too. Some will argue that the bees go out and get pollen. BUT....picture how much pollen the bees must gather to injest, to feed their young. That be lots.....and if there is inclement weather in spring, and yes, we all know we do not have the perfect foraging weather all the time, then there is no pollen brought in.

Take a few minutes to read the information in these sites. Our job as beekeepers is to keep bees, create strong colonies, these strong colonies in turn, will provide us with wonderful byproducts, our reward for helping them to be happy, strong and healthy.

I can go on about things, and I feel compelled to ramble a little here. But again, I implore that you read these information sites. It does not have to be right now, but bookmark them, put them in your favourites, do what you have to do, so you can recall this information and do a little studying. It will be worth it for you and your bees. Listen and learn. Have the best of this great, wonderful day, love our life we live. Cindi

http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/2003/diary051003.htm#protein

http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/HBBiology/nutrition_supplements.htm

dpence · February 08, 2008, 11:11:55 AM

Good information Cindi, thanks.

Kathyp · February 08, 2008, 12:52:30 PM

i got my pollen patties from Mann Lake the other day. looks like our weather temps are going to be between 45 and 55 for now. still not even dandelions blooming. if this forecast holds and the rain passes this morning, i will apply my first feeding this PM. i think no syrup yet. the hive weight was good and it's still to wet and cold at night for syrup.

Michael Bush · February 08, 2008, 07:19:35 PM

I'm not against it, it won't hurt the bees any, but I've usually seen my pollen patties go to waste if there is fresh pollen available.

thegolfpsycho · February 08, 2008, 10:06:18 PM

Around here, the nectar flows are over by July. The bees switch their full attention to pollen, and will stuff the bottom deep full in a very short time. The next year, they start over with fresh pollen and leave the bottom box alone. This scenario will repeat if I leave them alone, then I will have two boxes of pollen. Which they will ignore again. It ties up a lot of equipment, and makes fall manipulations an even larger project. I've seen em bringing in pollen in late February on a warmish day with snow on the ground. They find it long before I see the willows or dandylions blooming. I worry much more about them being stranded on brood and away from stores with our fickle weather around here.

Moonshae · February 08, 2008, 10:29:04 PM

Packages have at least 2-3 weeks to gather pollen before any brood emerges, so I'm not sure there's a benefit. Nucs should have stored honey and pollen in the frames when purchased, so they should be able to survive while gathering, too, no?

Michael Bush · February 09, 2008, 10:00:51 AM

I love having frames of pollen for starting splits, rearing queens, feeding pollen in the spring to the ones that don't have enough...

JP · February 09, 2008, 10:43:39 AM

Good post Cindi, lots of useful information to keep in mind. Thanks for posting.

Sincerely, JP

Cindi · February 09, 2008, 10:59:55 AM

Quote from: Moonshae on February 08, 2008, 10:29:04 PM
Packages have at least 2-3 weeks to gather pollen before any brood emerges, so I'm not sure there's a benefit. Nucs should have stored honey and pollen in the frames when purchased, so they should be able to survive while gathering, too, no?

Moonshae, I think that you lost the point here. They need to feed the eggs and larvae soon after the package is hived.

Listen to this. The package hived, the queen released in probably no more than 5 days, sometimes she will be released in two days, she begins to lay eggs, one day. That be around 6 days. These eggs and larvae must have food that is provided to them by the nursing bees. Period. If they don't have pollen they cannot produce sufficient royal jelly from they hypopharyngeal glands. They have protein stores in their bodies, but that doesn't last long. Yes, nucs SHOULD have stored pollen and honey in the frames when purchased, but do they always have enough? I am not sure of that.

Personally, I would rather safeguard and have sufficient stores for my bees in the spring. Yes, they may have stored sufficient pollen the prior season to last until they can get out to get pollen stores on their own. BUT....again, my personal opinion and choice. I will be putting on pollen patties, JUST IN CASE they don't have enough stores.

Michael, you are 100% correct in saying that if they have enough stores they won't use the pollen patty and it is wasted. But still, I would think it would be very time consuming to check to see if they have adequate stored pollen stores, that would mean going into the boxes to physically look.

This article talked about the need for a continuous supply of pollen, like when feeding patties. If they run out of pollen, they will begin to dump the brood because they cannot feed it. It must be watched (until really big stores of pollen are coming in) that they don't run out of pollen patty, if they are consuming large amounts.

My bees always have lots of pollen that they store over the summer and use during the wintertime. But I can also tell you that by seeing the the huge amounts of pollen patty that they consume in the spring, that they very obviously are not gathering enough from outside until about May -- to support the amount of brood being raised.

This may be common to my part of the world, down in the more southern climates, things may be very different. I just wanted to ensure that everyone is totally aware of the deep and incredible need for bees to have ADEQUATE supplies of pollen, be it patty or stored. Have a wonderful and great day, we be lovin' this life we live. Cindi

Cindi · February 09, 2008, 11:08:15 AM

Quote from: kathyp on February 08, 2008, 12:52:30 PM
i got my pollen patties from Mann Lake the other day. looks like our weather temps are going to be between 45 and 55 for now. still not even dandelions blooming. if this forecast holds and the rain passes this morning, i will apply my first feeding this PM. i think no syrup yet. the hive weight was good and it's still to wet and cold at night for syrup.

Kathy, sometimes I think that your climate and mine are kind of similar. I could be totally wrong. We don't begin to feed any kind of sugar syrup around here (unless the bees don't have enough stores) to induce brood rearing until around the beginning of April. That is what we were taught in our beekeeping courses, but again, everyone's climate is so different.

What is your reason for feeding s.s.? Curious, is it to stimulate brood rearing? I really need to know your thoughts on this.

Our temperatures are sitting right now in the daytime at approximately 6C (42F), so you are definitely presently quite a bit warmer than us. Our dandelions begin to bloom about April 1 or so. When do yours bloom? Have a wonderful and greatest of days, love our earth. Cindi

Michael Bush · February 09, 2008, 05:18:03 PM

A lot of beekeeping is local. Here we never get more than maybe two rainy days in a row. In a climate where you might get a week or two, it might be an issue. In my climate in the spring I've never gotten them to do much with pollen patties past when the first trees start producing it.

Kathyp · February 09, 2008, 07:55:38 PM

QuoteWhat is your reason for feeding s.s.? Curious, is it to stimulate brood rearing? I really need to know your thoughts on this.

that's it exactly. i want to split the two big hives and build up the smaller one. the raspberry crop blooms in april, but the blackberries are not until much later. i want them built up before the blackberry crop. i got to take a look today and slip in the pollen patties. all 3 hives look good from the top. all were flying. none were aggressive even though i did not smoke them.

MB, today is the first dry day in 3 weeks. it is the first time i have seen the bees in at least a month. it has been one wet, cold, winter. if it turns out that they are stuffed with pollen i don't think that will be a problem when i split them in early april? seems like it might be a + for a split.

Brian D. Bray · February 10, 2008, 01:31:38 AM

I've never had to feed pollen. I have mentioned in several other posts that the tukwilas (Hazelnuts) have catkins right now, so bees that can get out have a pollen source. If a hive has sufficient honey stores left the early influx of fresh pollen should get them up and running with raising brood when the temps climb above 45 degrees F. If they don't have sufficient stores, and you see pollen available from flowering plants then stimulate by feeding 1:1 syrup. That's all I've ever done.

Those in my area who feed patties usually end up throwing 90% of it away.

Cindi · February 10, 2008, 10:59:02 AM

Eeeks!!! OK I hate to be an antagonist. But I need to say stuff. Everyone's climate (or microclimate) is so different. Brian you say that most beekeepers in your area wind up throwing away about 90% of their pollen patty if they feed.

We must live in such a different climate that I can hardly believe it. You are about 100 miles southward of where I live. I know that you had drought when we had cool, damp and rain. That is something that nearly knocks my socks off.

I have always fed pollen patties in the spring, the bees gobble them up. I live in the country, we have myriads of pollen producing trees, plants, yes, the catkins are beginning to produce pollen now, I see that. There is an enormous but here......(I don't mean butt, hee, hee, smiling, ;) :)).

If the bees can't get out to fly and they have insufficient pollen stores then they MUST have pollen.....period. Again, every climate is so different, I must keep reiterating this.

My bees gooble up pollen, at a rate of probably one pollen patty a week (500 gram patties, just over one pound). The weather here is just so dicey, the bees can't always get out.

You will recall BEEC, another forum member. He lives about 6 km northeast of me, he has the identical climate. I was shocked last summer when he told me that he was still feeding pollen patties to his bees, and they were gobbling it up as fast as he could give it to them. There is something said here. I stopped feeding pollen patties around the beginning of May, he continued all summer, and I think he probably got fat bees, hee, hee. I know he had wonderfully strong colonies going into the wintertime, that was good.

So, this pollen patty stuff, well, I think that it totally depends on the weather mostly. I don't understand why the bees would gobble up pollen patty if they didn't need it.

Another thought, perhaps with the use of pollen patty there are less pollen foragers (some bees are designated for this job), and then would lead to more nectar and propolis gatherers.

The recipe I use for pollen patty has an extremely high content of pollen and this year I am using honey water to mix with the sugar to make the sugar syrup, which should be even more beneficial. This topic has kind of run away, and is strange, my bees very obviously require extra pollen that they are not getting from the outside world, weather related, surely. Have a wonderful and beautiful day, love our life we live. Cindi

PDCambs · February 10, 2008, 11:32:32 AM

Quote from: Cindi on February 10, 2008, 10:59:02 AM

You will recall BEEC, another forum member. He lives about 6 km northeast of me, he has the identical climate. I was shocked last summer when he told me that he was still feeding pollen patties to his bees, and they were gobbling it up as fast as he could give it to them. There is something said here. I stopped feeding pollen patties around the beginning of May, he continued all summer, and I think he probably got fat bees, hee, hee. I know he had wonderfully strong colonies going into the wintertime, that was good.

Can you be sure the bees were not just removing the patties from their hive? If so as he keeps putting it in and they will keep removing it; I have heard of such happening to patties the bees take a dislike to.

I also understand bees will ignore patties if there is real pollen to forage on, surely he was within range of good pollen sources at some point?

Best regards

Peter
Cambridge UK

Cindi · February 10, 2008, 11:43:23 AM

Peter, no clue. I have an issue right now with any PDF file, there is some kind of conflict with Acrobat Reader 7 and it keeps freezing my computer (dumb, guess I need to upgrade to 8), so I can't look at the Fat Bees Skinny Bees book (i have that downloaded too) about the milk powder thingy.

Maybe BEEC's bees were throwing out the pollen. I don't know. Wasn't there, but he was pretty adamant that they were being all used up. I think that he would have seen pollen patty remmanents (eeks, how do you spell that darn word anyways) on the ground, he would have mentioned it, he is pretty observant.

I know that there is absolutely no remanant (spelling, come on, can't even get the auto spell checker to help me out here) of pollen patty outside my colonies (just the wax paper chewed up), they are consuming it. The ways of the bees are mysterious, I love to live in a mystery. Have a wonderful and greatest of this day, love our life we are all livin'. Cindi

Michael Bush · February 10, 2008, 11:50:34 AM

>Those in my area who feed patties usually end up throwing 90% of it away.

That's may experience once there is pollen available. Before that they will take them and before that I use them. This fall I put some out because others had said the bees were taking pollen and they took that, which I had not seen before. I think there was a pollen dearth this fall along with the nectar dearth. I wish I'd fed them sooner.

>I have always fed pollen patties in the spring, the bees gobble them up.

If you are getting them to eat them, they probably need them otherwise they would ignore them. On the other hand, just because they LIKE a pollen substitute patty does not prove it's nutritious. Manufacturers add a lot of sugar and other things to make it appealing, but that doesn't mean it has the right amino acids and proteins.

I try to only feed either whole pollen or 50/50 pollen/substitute depending on how much I need and what I can afford. Substitute is very inferior bee food.

Cindi · February 10, 2008, 11:55:17 AM

>If you are getting them to eat them, they probably need them otherwise they would ignore them. On the other hand, just because they LIKE a pollen substitute patty does not prove it's nutritious. Manufacturers add a lot of sugar and other things to make it appealing, but that doesn't mean it has the right amino acids and proteins.

I try to only feed either whole pollen or 50/50 pollen/substitute depending on how much I need and what I can afford. Substitute is very inferior bee food.

EXACTLY, that is why I make my own with IRRADIATED pollen from my bee course instructor. My pollen patties are nutritious, I know that Michael. The only thing that I think they are lacking may be extra vitamin C. I recall that you said that you add this to the patty if you give it. I will be adding this, it will be the purest vitamin C that I can get, none of that "chewable" crap that so many use. Probably plain and simple ascorbic acid, right? They are one in the same, right? Have a beautiful and wonderful day, we be lovin' life we live. Cindi

Michael Bush · February 10, 2008, 05:56:38 PM

>none of that "chewable" crap

It's probably just sugar added to make it more "chewable". :) I just buy it in bulk at Sam's club in the 1000mg size.

reinbeau · February 10, 2008, 07:37:57 PM

Cindi, have you posted your pollen patty recipe? We bought 5 lbs of pollen from Brushy Mountain and I'd love to make some patties with it. We're thinking of putting it in little piles on the top bars (supported with cardboard, I guess) but if you've got a recipe that uses real pollen I'd try that, too!