Pesticide trouble!!Need Advice!!

[annette]

Ok this is the story

My 2 hives sit on a knoll about 300 feet from my friends house. My hives are on his property.

Wednesday afternoon he sprayed something in the garden, which he said was like roundup, although he called it something else by name.He uses this stuff to keep the weeds down between the vegetable beds. I was concerned but he said there wasn't even one bee in the garden when he sprayed. I looked around and he was right, as I could not see any bees. There is nothing growing in the garden now.The bees were off working on the rosemary hedge which is in full bloom right now (about 50 feet from the garden)

OK on Friday morning about 10:00 Clark Pest control came to his house and sprayed around the perimeter of his house. I did not know that he had a contract with Clark Pest Control until I saw the invoice hanging on his door. I was concerned about this spraying as well.

Well, yesterday afternoon around 1:30PM I got up to look at the bees and I was surprised to see a pile of dead bees on the ground in front of my strong hive which was not there the previous days. Also the bees were dragging out even more dead bodies as I watched. Some of the bees on the ground were hanging from the blades of grass. The pile was about 100 bees or more. Not overwhelming amount, but I was truly concerned if this could be presticide poisoning.

Today I went into the hives and they look fine. If this was a case of pesticide poisoning, it looks like a small case.

I probably overreacted, but I spoke to my friend about all the spraying he had done over the past couple of days and explained my concerns for the bees. He said that if I can scientifically come up with proof that the spraying has done any harm to the bees, he will cancel the contract with Clark Pest Control. He just started up this spraying because he has to many ants and spiders coming into the house.

So now I have to call Clark Pest Control this week and find out what they are using to spray around his house. I also want to find out how they are spraying. If they come out a few feet into the garden area, or just stay close to the foundation. There are flowers that the bees forage on only a few feet away from the foundation of the house. These flowers are not in bloom yet, but might be the next time he sprays.

The contract calls for the spraying to be done every 2 months. This has me so worried.

If anyone here has any experience with this kind of extermination  please let me know.  I will call Clark on Tuesday, my first day off of work and speak to them to find out what exactly they are using to spray. Also I want to arrange to be there next time to watch the spraying.

I am feeling so uneasy about this, but my friend really wants to spray his house. I do not want to have any friction with him as he has allowed me to keep my bees in a wonderful area that has much vegetation for them to forage on.

Will my bees be safe here????

The answer has to be scientific to prove anything. Cannot be from emotions of which I have my share.

Thanks for any help
Annette

[Kathyp]

sounds like your bees were cleaning house.

if there was nothing in bloom and nothing with pollen around where they were spraying, and if they were spraying only around the foundation, it seems unlikely to me that your bees would have been impacted.

[Trot]

Well, now - scientific proof they want?  You got proof.   Pick the dead bees, put them in the jar and save in the freezer!

Cleaning house? Perhaps? 
But, carcases from the hive don't hang from the blades of grass. Housecleaning is more visible in days fallowing long winter. During flying time bees fly away to die. This habit is written in them - to protect the hive from possible contamination.  Those that die in and around the hive do so unexpectedly - therefore they were poisoned and it caught some in the hive - most of poisoned ones are laying elsewhere.... Those that feel sick and can't fly - they will walk away from the hive.


On Tuesday, inquire what is the procedure in your town/county?  As I see it, any spraying, by private individuals, but especialy professionals has to be performed according to set rules  and the instructions pertaining to the stuff they use.
It is general practice even by "boneheads" that beekeeper is notified and/or spraying is done at times when bees are at home.
(at least that is the way it's done in Canada and in most of the world)

I had such a occurrence only once in all the years among the bees. Hydro had sprayed under some power lines, to kill off the brush.  They failed to notify me, cause they thought that bees ware far enough and  the stuff they used was not supposed to harm them.
Well, I had dead bees in front of most hives - not much/many, but enough that it angered me.  I found out about the hydro and I complained and also contacted our bee club and the inspector.
They were at fault and they compensated me for dead bees and for future loss of crop due to lesser strength of the hives.

Note:
Poison don't have to be on the flowers !  Bees will find it if it is liquid or dust. They will investigate it. Most poisons are sweet tasting/smelling, some are in other strange ways attractable to insects.
Scientific proof - my foot!?

[Moonshae]

You have a good neighbor if he'll cancel the contract if it's killing your bees. Most people wouldn't care.

Spraying for spiders is dumb, though. If you have a spider problem, then you have a bug problem. Like anything else, spiders don't hang around if there's no food available.

[DayValleyDahlias]

Using glycophospates is NOT good, spraying it in a veggie patch..even worse!

[Michael Bush]

I agree with all that's been said.  It's doubtful that spraying around the house would have a large impact on the bees, and it doesn't look like it has, but if it's done on a regular basis, the problems may accumulate.  If you have spiders, it's because they are eating the insects in your house.  Not a bad think, IMO.  But then I've seen more spiders in the last two years than ever before.  I'm not sure why.

[Hayesbo]

I have no opinion, scientific or otherwise on the pesticides and possible damage at this time. I may form one later.(if I need to) :-\

My worthless opinion is that your neighbor, for whatever reason he finds necessary wants to spray around his house. It is his house afterall. No judgement or condemnation for either party just leading up to my next thought that is all.

I assume that the relationship between you and your neighbor is strong enough that you can find out when the pest control company is going to spray. Possibly the night before they spray, you can seal the bees in when it is dark. (allowing for proper ventillation of course. Maybe a screened bottom board and vented top??) Keep them out of harms way for a couple of days to let the worst of the chemicals wash into the soil with dew and possible light rinse by you or neighbor. That would not totally eliminate all pesticide casualties, but it should reduce them somewhat.

I look forward to hearing how the experts recommend handling this.

Steve

[JP]

Annette, when the weather permits check each hive and see how the queen is doing and check for brood production. Like Don said give them plenty of water. Best of luck.

....JP

[Brian D. Bray]

As a former Restuarant Manager I have to say that spraying is the least effect method of pest control for structures.  A good IPCM program uses baits and traps.  Sprays last only a few days at best and if applied outside dispate rapidly.  The Pest control people are making money of his ignorance as the sprays are cheaper and take less attention.  Roundup in the Veggie Garden?  Don't eat at his house. 

[mgates61]

Round-up in the veggie garden will not hurt you because it kills the veggies and you will not eat them.  If you or anyone serves veggies that are sprayed with any chemicals....then I have a stick that wants to talk to you.

[Jerrymac]

Many years ago I worked for a pest control outfit. I never sprayed around the outside of a house. Never heard of anyone doing it. Perhaps it is some new thing or something not practiced here.

If you find out what they are spraying you might contact.... Ummmm.... Here it would be the Texas Pest Control Board...... And find out the proper use of the stuff and if it is suppose to be used in the manner they are using it. Some places do not adhere to the rules very well. This would not only be for your bees but for your friend and the environment.

[NWIN Beekeeper]

Roundup is likely not a real issue.

The spraying on the house could be an issue because it is likely is it performed every other month.

The chemicals that get used (micro encapsulates) are very toxic to bees.
These are required to break down by law (usually in the 60 day windows between applications).

The question is how well is it broken down and how soon?
This depends on sunlight (UV) exposure, moisture (rain), and temperatures.
No one application lasts the same duration as the one before.

Some labels imply that the chemical could be below lethal doses in 5 days, others closer to 30 days.
It depends on the pesticide, it mixture, its age and its application.

Microencapsulated pesticides require direct contact with the bee.
This can be from plant in bloom around the foundation, or encapsulates washed off the house surface and in standing water the bees drink. Your risk of exposure will increase if more plants are in bloom closer to the house.

Encapsulates are dangerous to hives because they are not an immediate kill, that is they can consume and bring the chemicals back to the hive. The fortunate thing is, it can only be share in half with other bees some many times before it becomes so dilute that it is not longer effective. None-the-less, one poisoned bee can return and kill a dozen (or more or less).

Pest control companies will tell you that they only apply x-number of feet away from the house (otherwise it is a lawn treatment, covered by other law).  However, this number does not take into consideration the skill of the pesticide applicator in WIND.  There is what is called DRIFT that can land chemicals many feet away from the target.  This can be especially bad if there are adjacent flower/food gardens that can receive the drift. Companies will tell you that their employees are trained to avoid drift - but it ultimately the conscious of the applicator to do what is right at the time the chemicals are sprayed.

Keep in mind, the risk of contract pest control is possible for every house in foraging distance. You maybe have been impacted in the past without ever knowing it. Doesn't make it right to suffer from it now though.

The best thing you can do is manage your hives as well as you can to assure population replacement for any kill off.

You might want to recommend to your neighbor to take inside pest control treatment.
It can be just as effective without any exposure to your bees.
If he refuses, you could also request him to take fewer treatments.
(Maybe just Spring and Mid Summer - during your dearth when blooms are dead)
If he refuses those options, then I would perhaps ask him to take very late evening treatments or very early treatments to impact the fewest of your foragers.

I think you are getting the picture that I am trying to paint that you provide you the least exposure.

-Jeff
(Licensed Pesticide Applicator Indiana)
(Orkin Pest Control Service Employee)

Edited: speling sux

[Cindi]

Annette, sorry to hear of the bee losses.  That seems like an unusual amount of bees for housecleaning.  I think that some of the bees were affected by this product.  No official stuff, just thoughts.  You will get answers to your queeries.  Have a wonderful and beautiful day, Cindi

[DayValleyDahlias]

I have an idea...there are solutions that can be sprayed around the foundation of the house to keep ants away such a 'Orange TKO'...it has dilimonene in it, I think it is more of a repellant than an actual killer. Some of the spray companies have it, your neighbors could ask. Spiders are everywhere around my place.  I would have to fumigate the house, workshops, greenhouse, etc. to kill them.  We even have ground spiders, that scurry along as I pull weeds.

I used to use pesticides and insecticides some years ago.  I seek safe alternatives now.  Sorry I don't mean to be on the soapbox about it...just my 2 cents.

[bassman1977]

Annette, sorry to hear of the bee losses.  That seems like an unusual amount of bees for housecleaning.  I think that some of the bees were affected by this product.

IMO, I don't think it's unusual.  Earlier this year when we had our first break from the cold, my hives did some house cleaning as well and I'd say each one of them had about as much.  There wasn't as much the remainder of the winter....so far.  That's my only comment about this situation.  Personally I would investigate the chemical used and asked your friend for some heads up next time around.

[annette]

I appreciate all these responses from all of you. I am going to take all of them into consideration and I will also print out this topic for my friend to read.

Tomorrow, I will call Clark Pest Control to get more info. Also I want to be there whenever they spray. I like the idea of closing down the hives when spraying takes place. Just such a hassle though.

I doubt they would come out early enough to spray or even late enough, but I will ask them.

I am feeling very unhappy about this turn of events.

Does anyone know where I can send a sample of my dead bees to see if it was pesticide poisoning??? This seems like a good idea also and concrete evidence to show him.
Thank you all
Annette

[NWIN Beekeeper]

I know there are going to be a number of pest control people that disagree with me but I think if farmers are required to know the beekeepers in their areas before they spray, the same should be true for pest control companies.

I know that is not a set in stone law, but if you are registered with the state it is suppose to provide you some protection for pesticide kills. I doubt few if any farmers really check with the state inspector and get a list of their local beekeepers - but they should. Likewise, I think it should be a law that if a pesticide company is licensed to apply insecticides, they should be required to contact those that they may impact (beekeepers). The argument that will come around how ever, is that some chemicals that are used are not 'restricted use'.  Many of them any Joe Blow can buy off the internet and use without a license.

Perhaps there needs to be Federal Label law changed to protect honeybees better?
Maybe any product labeled pesticide should require acquiring a list of beekeepers and contacting all in a 5 mile radius before spraying?

With Urban sprawl around here, my clean area of operation (minimal pesticide applications) is getting smaller and smaller. That doesn't even account for d-i-y weekend gardeners or lawn care.

I don't recall seeing that Beltsville will test for pesticides, but they might, check the website or call. 
You might be better served to contact the state chemist office - they license the pest control companies. That office may also test for you.  I would try to get a copy of your neighbors service report - by law it has to list the chemical used, concentration, and locations. I would look up the products label on the internet and print that for submission to your neighbor as well.

People are frequently floored when they see that the chemicals effect a lot of animals besides insects (Birds, Fish, and nasty side effects of human contact).  That may also scare him into not using the service. I know that some chemicals have been cited for weird organ damage too - might not hurt to look for lawsuits against the listed chemical or even some settlements for honeybee damage. 

-Jeff

[steveouk]

My understanding if for my state anyway, is if you register your Bee hives with the Department for agricultures ( Oklahoma ) There is a ban on spraying pesticides within your area. Registration is voluntary...They might have the same for your area. i would check with your local extension office....

[JP]

Annette get your dead bees tested before you make any allegations. I am sorry for your loss, but try not to jump to any conclusions until you have the bees tested. It sounds like you have a really good neighbor who would be willing to help offset your losses. Try not to act when you are angry, we are not at our best then. Get all of your ducks in a row and figure this thing out, or it could happen in the future. Jeff made some valid points. The pco technician is indeed supposed to clearly state on the work receipt what product was used, where it was applied and at what percentage. This thing about spraying around the house is not good IPM (Integrated Pest Management) it is old school pest control that targets desirable and undesirable insects. Pesticides should be applied sparingly, in accordance with the pesticide label and target specific areas. If this clark company is indeed the culprit, ya'll need to not have them around. No use for irresponsibility in action.

Licensed PCO in Louisiana
Registered Beekeeper  in Louisiana

.....JP

[wayne]

  Weigh the possiblities carefully. For many beeks the loss of a bee is a disaster. But the homeowner has a reasonable right to be free of pests.
  Too much hassle and you may have to move the hives. Don't push too hard.