Disaster struck. Both hives dead. Help.

[jeffreym]

I just checked my bees yesterday  and both hives are dead.  They are remotely located, about 100 miles from my home in Central Michigan area.  One hive was going on 3 years old and produced 2 shallow supers of honey last fall and the other was new and it was its first Michigan winter.  I've taken a bunch of pictures and will post them soon.  It looks just like normal bee activity in the fall with pockets of bees tending certain areas and brood cells.  Frames have ample honey around the parameter, but it was like someone brought in a "freeze" gun and froze them into place.  Kinda like watching a movie about bees and then someone hit "pause".   Lots of dead bees in the bottom and lots of dead beas "stucK" to the frames in little groups.  I don't see any signs of deases.  Any ideas on this one?
Thank you,
Jeff-

[JP]

Sorry for your loss. Sounds to me like they starved, from what you have described.


...JP

[jeffreym]

Whats is weird, there are several frames with honey around the paramiters and 4 frames were packed solid with honey.  Plus I feed them late into the fall.

[JP]

Whats is weird, there are several frames with honey around the paramiters and 4 frames were packed solid with honey.  Plus I feed them late into the fall.

If the winter cluster was not adjacent to a food source, they won't leave cluster to feed when its very cold. Starving is common even in hives that have lots of stores.


...JP

[Kathyp]

JP, i have a question about the CW on starving.  those last two hives i took out were empty in the middle except for some little bit of brood. they were  packed with honey on the very far sides of the hives.  there was a little honey at the top, but not much.  this is much like what we expect to see in our hives.  the difference was the distance to the honey.  it was very far to the sides of the hive.  granted, there may have been more honey in the hive and it was eaten, but still a distance farther than our boxes.

?:  why would so many of our smaller, managed hives die when they have adequate food and close to them, when the hives in the 'wild' do not?

[Michael Bush]

The first thing I look for is whether they starved.  If the cluster was not in contact with stores, thats a likely cause.

The second thing I always look for is Varroa mites in the dead bees on the bottom.  And Varroa mite feces in the dark brood cells in the brood nest.  Varroa are one of the most common causes of death.  If you don't find those, then Varroa probably wasn't the cause.  If you find thousands, Varroa probably was.

[Cindi]

JP, i have a question about the CW on starving.  those last two hives i took out were empty in the middle except for some little bit of brood. they were  packed with honey on the very far sides of the hives.  there was a little honey at the top, but not much.  this is much like what we expect to see in our hives.  the difference was the distance to the honey.  it was very far to the sides of the hive.  granted, there may have been more honey in the hive and it was eaten, but still a distance farther than our boxes.

?:  why would so many of our smaller, managed hives die when they have adequate food and close to them, when the hives in the 'wild' do not?

Kathy, so many times I see acronyms used on the forum and I am at a loss as to what they mean.  First, what does "CW" mean?

I would like to hear the answer to your queery too, but I have a comment.  I am thinking that the bees in the wild manage their honey stores to be in contact with the size of the winter cluster.

You spoke about the centre of the colony being empty, that is how it should be, the bees need a couple of near-empty frames to cluster.  But then you talk about the frames being on the outside of the boxes.  10 frame boxes I presume you are talking about.  If the outside 1 and 10 frames have honey and the cluster is too small to come into contact with it they cannot reach it to consume or move the honey closer, they will indeed starve. 

I hope that I am getting some answer to your queery for you.  I am giving my thoughts here.  It is really important for the size of the winter cluster to be in good relation to the size of the box.  For example, a very large winter cluster of bees can easily move that cluster around to the outside of a 10 frame box to get food.  A small winter cluster would have a more difficult time.  A small winter cluster would be better off in a, say, nuc-sized box so it can reach the cluster, a medium sized cluster would be better off in an 8-frame box, could still move to get to the outside frames.  Are my comments making any sense and perhaps answering the queery?  If not, wait, you will hear more people chime in that may answer the question.  Beautiful day in this beautiful life, Cindi

[Kathyp]

CW=conventional wisdom  :-)

you may be right about cluster size.  i just noticed that the hives in walls, etc. seem to be much bigger with the honey much farther away from the center of the hive.  as an example, one of the hives i took out the other day was about 3 feet across and 4+ feet long.  the honey was at the extreme edges of the hive.  if they tend to cluster over whatever brood there is in the hive, that would put the honey a good distance from the cluster.  in addition, the comb was stuck to the front and back walls of the hive.  the distance to food would be even greater if the bees had to travel down and around the comb to get to the food.  why do these bees survive when our own, with a much smaller distance to food, starve?

[Cindi]

Kathy, oh I see what you are talking about now.  That is a good question and I am sure that some good answers will come forth.  But, my thought again.  When the bees are inside a structure, they have the protection and warmth from all around to keep the inner of the colony warm.  When the bees are in boxes outside, the wind whips around and cools the entire boxes, I imagine it is really cold around the outside walls of the boxes, is this what you are meaning?  Beautiful day in our wonderful lives.  Cindi

[JP]

I usually find honey stores adjacent to brood comb, in fact on the edges of the same combs. One other thing to consider in feral colonies there is not as much air space to allow colder air inside, so the interior of feral hives my guess are more insulated and ship tight. The bees may be able to travel a little more because of increased temps inside the colony, to get to stores. This is just speculation on my part. I'm sure someone with more yrs behind him like Michael Bush and Don (the fatbeeman) can answer with more scientific data.

Last yr we didn't get the rain we needed for good honey production and I wondered how some of the feral hives would make it. Upon removing some of these hives, late season, late spring, I was seeing in fact many hives running low on reserves. Some of these same hives I would guess were very close to starvation.

Various flows have been on for a good three weeks now and I am seeing some honey production, but not much surplus from last season.

Of course there are colonies that are the exception to the rule, and have great stores.


...JP

[Michael Bush]

>?:  why would so many of our smaller, managed hives die when they have adequate food and close to them, when the hives in the 'wild' do not?

Actually the ones in the wild do.  The typical hive swarms once a year.  At that rate, if none of the hives died, the population of bees would double every year.  Obviously that's not true, so on the average over the long run, half of them must die out somewhere along the line.  But I will speculate about what is different in a tree.

A typical hollow tree is between 6" to 14" in diameter.  Our typical hives are 16 1/4" by 19 7/8".  Much larger.  A typical hollow tree hive is probably two to four feet tall.  Our typical hives vary from one deep in the far south (9 5/8") to a double deep in the north (19 1/4").  So the stores are probably much more likely to be close to the bees.

A typical hollow tree has wood between about 3" and 12" thick around the bees.  This is much warmer than 3/4" which our typical hives are.

A typical hollow tree is punky wood that absorbs moisture.  A typical hive is solid wood that does not absorb nearly as much.

For a list of other differences:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesunnatural.htm

[jeffreym]

Wow, it just SO BAD.  I've only been doing this for 2 winters and last year the one hive (only one I had) came though fine.  I did wrap the hive in tar paper, but I didn't this year because some people suggested it was not necessary or even bad.  Here are some pictures from the disaster, perhaps those with more experience can spot trouble other that starvation, I just don't ever want to repeat this again.  These are links to photobucket.  You might have to cut 'n past them into a browser.  Thanks for all the help.
Jeff-

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/010.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/011.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/012.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/013.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/019.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/028.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/030.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/034.jpg

[Mklangelo]

Sorry to hear about your bees jeffrey. 

[JP]

Wow, it just SO BAD.  I've only been doing this for 2 winters and last year the one hive (only one I had) came though fine.  I did wrap the hive in tar paper, but I didn't this year because some people suggested it was not necessary or even bad.  Here are some pictures from the disaster, perhaps those with more experience can spot trouble other that starvation, I just don't ever want to repeat this again.  These are links to photobucket.  You might have to cut 'n past them into a browser.  Thanks for all the help.
Jeff-

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/010.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/011.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/012.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/013.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/019.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/028.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/030.jpg
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii106/jeffreymforth/Bees/034.jpg

Sorry man, but I just don't see hardly any stores, I believe they in fact starved. Get back on the horse and saddle up for your next ride.


...JP

[buzzbee]

Looks to me like starvation too!

[jeffreym]

So is starvation a sign of a bad beekeeper or bad luck?  What can be done to prevent this in the future?
Thanks,
Jeff

[JP]

So is starvation a sign of a bad beekeeper or bad luck?  What can be done to prevent this in the future?
Thanks,
Jeff

I have had a few that starved, yes, even here, in the south where we hardly have any winter. It was a few hives that I removed from structures late in the season, and I thought they would be fine with what I gave them but we hit a dearth and they had nothing coming in and perished.

Jeff we learn the most by the mistakes we make, if we can learn why we made them, it gives us the knowledge for prevention next go around.

Imo, a bad beekeeper is one that keeps repeating the same mistakes over and again without seeking solutions for resolve.

Here's a bunch of info that can help you with feeding: http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm

Please don't be hard on yourself for losing some hives, it happens. Just keep on keeping on and enjoy this hobby, it will enrich your life and others around you.


...JP

[qa33010]

    Unfortunately I lost two to starvation also this past winter.  They had four outside frames of honey in one hive and three and a half in the other.  Bees were trying to get honey out of cells that were empty when they died.  The weather just never got up to where they needed it to break cluster and move to it or bring it to them.  Very frustrating. :-x

[BAStallard]

I had two out of three hives make it through winter, the one that died looks alot like the one in the pictures, except more honey was in the hive, can I feed these frames of honey to the two hives that made it through winter? I will put the honey frames into a super and place it over the inner cover if I do.

[JP]

I had two out of three hives make it through winter, the one that died looks alot like the one in the pictures, except more honey was in the hive, can I feed these frames of honey to the two hives that made it through winter? I will put the honey frames into a super and place it over the inner cover if I do.

As long as it of course is all capped honey, should be fine to feed it to other bees.


...JP