Beginner's complicated questions

[jester7891]

I think I have a complicated problem(s).  I have two hives started on April 15.  I can't comment enough on the suggestion of starting with two hives from the beginning for comparison purposes – it has really helped.  The first hive seems to be incredibly robust.  After 10 days, the second brood chamber is completely full.  I guess it's time to add a queen excluder and shallow supers. I plan on doing this tomorrow if the weather is good and the questions that follow can be clarified.

The second hive never seemed to do as well.  Only five of the 10 first frames have been filled (after six weeks).  The brood is very spotty and most of the capped brood sticks out very far.  As I commented approximately 10 days ago, there seemed to be many bees with big eyes (drones).  The percentage now is over 50%.  I also now see eggs on the side of the cell and more than one egg in some of the cells.  I think it's pretty clear that I don't have a queen and that I have a laying worker(s).  I plan on taking this hive approximately hundred yards from where it is now, carefully brushing off all bees from the 10 frames and then replacing the 10 frames back in the original brood chamber.  I will order a new queen tomorrow.  When I have her I will do this maneuver and then place her in the hive just like I did when I received the original 3 pounds.  Is this the standard protocol?

I am also concerned about when the foraging bees come back to the hive and find no nursing bees.  Who will take care of the young?   I am also thinking about taking some of the frames from the robust hive and carefully removing all of the bees and placing the robust frames in the weak hive.  Can this be done?  Should this be done after the new queen has been installed?

The last question is more of a genetics question.  If I understand correctly, a worker (in a queenless hive) can produce a drone.  Can that drone eventually leave the hive and mate with another queen?  Since the drone came from the worker, it has only the worker's genes.  If this drone mates with a queen, genes from the worker will be passed on through the drone.  Is this possible or is a drone produced by a worker bee sterile?

                                      Thanks,      Jester

[Kathyp]

I am also concerned about when the foraging bees come back to the hive and find no nursing bees.  Who will take care of the young?   I am also thinking about taking some of the frames from the robust hive and carefully removing all of the bees and placing the robust frames in the weak hive.  Can this be done?  Should this be done after the new queen has been installed?

do a search her on laying worker.  it's been a common problem this year.  there is no problem with taking brood from your strong hive and moving it to the weaker on. in fact, it's a good idea.  one frame should be enough to start with.  you do not need to remove all the workers.  you might want to remove some if it's really crowded, but be careful not to brush the open brood.  one good shake over the donor hive will dislodge many and not disturb the brood/eggs to much (hopefully).  if your drone brood goes without care for a day or so, it doesn't really  matter.  add your frame of eggs and brood when you see the bees are coming back to the hive. 

i don't think you need to wait for the queen to shake out the hive.  maybe someone else can give you a better answer, but seems to me that you'd want the bees back in the hive before you add the queen.  the frame of brood should keep them happy until you have her.

if you are going to use an excluder, you might want to leave it off for a few days after you add the honey super.  let the bees start working it.  when you see that they are, you can add the excluder.

[gottabee]

I have seen this technique used for a laying worker and it worked. Since not all of the workers will make it back I have a thought - I might consider combining the hives after the laying worker is eliminated to build their strength up and work a split later. Having a very strong have and a very weak hive is problematic. Ideally the hives should be relatively equal.

[Michael Bush]

> I guess it's time to add a queen excluder and shallow supers.

Or shallow supers and then, when they are working them, an excluder under them.  Or don't bother with the excluder...

>The second hive never seemed to do as well.  Only five of the 10 first frames have been filled (after six weeks).  The brood is very spotty and most of the capped brood sticks out very far.

Laying workers.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm

>  As I commented approximately 10 days ago, there seemed to be many bees with big eyes (drones).  The percentage now is over 50%. 

It's probably doomed.  The simplest solution at this point is move the boxes, shake all the bees on the ground and put the boxes on other hives.  When the bees have settled down (in about two weeks) you can do a small split if you really want another hive.

>I also now see eggs on the side of the cell and more than one egg in some of the cells.  I think it's pretty clear that I don't have a queen and that I have a laying worker(s).  I plan on taking this hive approximately hundred yards from where it is now, carefully brushing off all bees from the 10 frames and then replacing the 10 frames back in the original brood chamber.  I will order a new queen tomorrow. 

Don't waste your money trying to requeen a laying worker hive.  If you really want to do that (and I don't recommend it at this point since they dwindled so much) then put a frame of open brood in every week for three weeks and THEN introduce a queen.  Otherwise they will most likely kill the queen.

>When I have her I will do this maneuver and then place her in the hive just like I did when I received the original 3 pounds.  Is this the standard protocol?

Yes it's standard and it only works about one out of four times.  I don't recommend it.  The open brood will work 100% of the time.  Shaking them out and doing a split later will work 100% of the time.

>I am also concerned about when the foraging bees come back to the hive and find no nursing bees.  Who will take care of the young?

Older bees can nurse just fine.  It just takes them a couple of days to shift gears.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#Old%20Bees%20Good%20Nurses

Also in Wisdom of the Hive by Tom Seeley page 31:

"Indeed, it is probably possible for bees of almost any age to perform a particular task if the occasion demands it, as has been recently discussed in detail bo Robinson (1992)."

>   I am also thinking about taking some of the frames from the robust hive and carefully removing all of the bees and placing the robust frames in the weak hive.  Can this be done?

Sure.  But IF you really want to do this, I'd leave the bees on the frames.

>  Should this be done after the new queen has been installed?

Well, I wouldn't waste the new queen on a laying worker hive...

>The last question is more of a genetics question.  If I understand correctly, a worker (in a queenless hive) can produce a drone.  Can that drone eventually leave the hive and mate with another queen? 

Yes.

>Since the drone came from the worker, it has only the worker's genes.

As does ALL the drones from queens as well.

>  If this drone mates with a queen, genes from the worker will be passed on through the drone.

Which would happen exactly the same way if she was a queen.

> Is this possible or is a drone produced by a worker bee sterile?

Drones from worker bees are normal and able to mate.  They are genetically identical to any other drone.  ALL drones are haploid.  ALL drones only contain the genes from their mother.  NO drone has a father.  Some inbred queens will lay haploid drone eggs, but the workers never let these mature. They remove them.