laying worker on new swarm HELP!!

wildbeekeeper · June 16, 2008, 05:05:28 PM

:? Help! I think I have laying workers! I picked up a swarm late last week...went to check progress today... still cant find queen... I placed brand new waxed foundation in today and pulled out the one section that they had built (abut the size of a baseball) and 90% of the cells there were MULTIPLE eggs..some had just one but most had 4 or 5!!!!! they look like tiny tiny grains of rice so im sure they are eggs.... what do I do! Order a queen ASAP (Im leaving town for 10 days on thursday) or try to find a beek that will give me or sell me a brood frame and hope they get a quenn out of it? PLEASE HELP!!!! Thanks!!!

Amilo · June 16, 2008, 05:35:48 PM

Maybe they swarmed with a virgin Queen and she has not got the hang of laying yet ?

Keith13 · June 16, 2008, 05:42:53 PM

are the eggs in the bottom of the cells or stuck to the walls? I have heard new queens will sometimes lay more than one egg in a cell the workers clean it up for her.

Also im not sure about this but would they have followed the other workers into the hive. in otherwords would a queenless hive swarm?

Keith

wildbeekeeper · June 16, 2008, 05:43:47 PM

I thought of that too, but when I got the swarm, the lady whose property they were on said that the swarm was ALOT bigger a week ago when they showed up. When I hived them, I checked and checked and still dont see a queen. I talked to Drapers and it was suggested that half the swarm could have left with the queen to go to the new home and the others satyed put. So, I went ahead and ordered a new queen.

He also suggested that when I get the quuen, I dump all the bees about 100 feet away and those bees taht oriented towards that hive would return and the laying worker will not....so Im hoping for the best!

deejaycee · June 16, 2008, 06:08:25 PM

cripes. Slow down and breathe!

Quotebrand new waxed foundation in today and pulled out the one section that they had built (abut the size of a baseball)

I'd lay odds that's your answer. A queen will lay multiple eggs in a cell if she doesn't have enough space. She's probably just pumping them out faster than the workers can build ahead of her.

Try and get her some drawn comb to lay in while the workers are building elsewhere.

Look closely - are the bulk of the eggs (or any of them for that matter) deep in the cells and near the center? That's a queen laying. If they're on the walls of the cell and not at the bottom that's a shorter bodied worker laying who can't reach the bottom of the cell. (bear in mind that if the cells are new and short a worker could possibly reach the bottom).

wildbeekeeper · June 16, 2008, 06:31:14 PM

ok, heres a picture of a couple of cells.....a very small % of whats there but most look like this.... what do you all think? Im going back to look fopr the queen again......

deejaycee · June 16, 2008, 06:47:02 PM

*lol* oh gawd... that poor girl's been real busy!

They're all bottom and centre-ish - good sign they're queen laid. Just try and beg, steal or borrow a frame of drawn comb for her and I think you'll find she'll be fine.

More discussion on same topic:

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,15384.0.html

wildbeekeeper · June 16, 2008, 06:53:35 PM

ok... breathing.... but not easy enough.... they are drawing comb on some other foundation more extensively.......I just looked again....s o do I cancel the queen order? I dont have a source for drawn comb...unfortunately. Liek I said above, I m leaving in two days and will be gone for 8 days.... IF it is a laying worker, can I still recover from it when I get back?

or do I put in a new queen anyway? All the comb is like this....some pollen, no caps yet....is she just that new a "virgin" queen and she is laying like there is no tomorrow?

help! :-\ and ALL is appreciated! Just want to do the right thing and NOT lose a hive... this all new to me (just got my hives three weeks ago via swarms!)

deejaycee · June 16, 2008, 07:10:13 PM

I was in the same sort of spot last season with two new swarms and my one existing hive (at the time) wasn't robbable for comb. I know it's nerve wracking.

If they're building, then odds on they will pull through fine. Feed them plenty of sugar syrup - they need sugar/honey to produce wax. Don't feed pollen - you don't want to encourage more brood just yet - not until they've room anyway.

As for the ordered queen, if it were me I'd cancel, but it depends. How easy/fast can you get another queen if needed? If you do get her and don't need her (which I believe will be teh case), where do you put her if not in this hive - presumably you don't have enough resources to create a split for her.

If.. and I do mean IF it's a laying worker, to my mind you'll be no worse off in a week than you are now, so I'd not rush into action just because you'll be away in the interim.

wildbeekeeper · June 16, 2008, 07:26:55 PM

so what happens if I kept the queen order and there was already a queen? would one kill the other? are there any pictures of a laying worker cell with eggs to compare to a normal queen layed cell... or the pics that I took?

not exactly panicing here, just looking for the right thing to do! :)

annette · June 16, 2008, 07:39:24 PM

I have a couple of photos of a true laying worker hive, but I am trying to figure out how to get those photos over here. They are in a previous post of mine. Darn I cannot figure out how to get those photos over here. Can anyone help????

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/20/dsc01105no7.th.jpg

OH NO. The photo came out so small you can't see anything.

deejaycee · June 16, 2008, 07:47:51 PM

Annette, if you go to the other post and right click on the picture, then select properties, it will give you the URL of the picture - copy that and you can post it here.

doak · June 16, 2008, 07:53:05 PM

I would say the chances of a swarm having laying workers is more than one in one thousand.
If the eggs are in worker cells, "bottom" then it may be the queen hasn't got the hang of it yet.
Don't think they would have built all drone cells from the get go. The only way workers could reach bottom
to lay an egg down there.
doak

deejaycee · June 16, 2008, 08:03:49 PM

I don't have any laying worker pics handy, but if you really want to you can always do a google image search to find some. Unfortunately they will look enough like what you are seeing in your hive to freak you out further.

You need to look beyond the visual and consider all the circumstances and then what the odds of each scenario are. In my opinion you simply have an unestablished hive which has a functional queen who is being forced into behaving as a laying worker would by the lack of space to lay in.

As far as putting a new queen in if you already have a functional queen, yes, one of them must die. Whether the workers will kill your new queen in defence of their existing, or the two queens will battle it out - could go either way. Consider this though - a respected local beek recently said at a requeening meeting here "why on earth would I put a new mated queen, who I've put work/money into producing straight into a life and death battle by putting her in a queenright hive? It's only 50/50 that she'll be the survivor, and what if she is, but comes out with a broken leg, a damaged wing or some other injury? I've then replaced an adequate queen with an immediately damaged one. " Something to think about.

On the other hand, if you have a laying worker hive and you put your new queen in, the workers will kill her just as quickly as if they have a queen. The laying workers are producing enough 'satisfaction' within the hive population to hold it together, and as far as most of the hive is concerned they are doing just fine.

IF it is a laying worker, you need to get them to the stage where they realise the are in need of a queen - this is usually done by giving them a frame of open eggs each week until they get the urge to produce queen cells on their own - THEN they'll be in a mood to accept a queen. Earlier is wasted effort in my opinion.

wildbeekeeper · June 16, 2008, 08:15:53 PM

ok, though I'm still nopt sure what to do, I think i will cancel my ordered queen, sinc it wont ship until 2moro and then when I get back at the end of the month I will take a look and see what they have done while I was gone...and THEN if I need a queen I will order one. thanks for all of your help and advice....please keep t coming on his post...it will help me feel better about doing the right thing!!

Moonshae · June 16, 2008, 10:10:45 PM

Think of it this way...you captured a swarm...it cost you next to nothing. If it doesn't pan out, at least you got a bit of comb drawn in the process.

So...take a deep breath and relax. If it's a laying worker, you'll have time to take care of it when you get back. If you have a laying queen who is just learning the ropes, they'll be well on their way when you get back. In either case, no need for panic.

annette · June 17, 2008, 12:42:59 AM

Quote from: deejaycee on June 16, 2008, 07:47:51 PM
Annette, if you go to the other post and right click on the picture, then select properties, it will give you the URL of the picture - copy that and you can post it here.

I tried that but the photo came out so small you can't see anything.