Is this normal or not?

Started by Amanda, July 02, 2008, 03:56:28 PM

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Amanda

My two hives are about six weeks old and they both seem to be growing at about the same rate, but they look very different inside.  I'm worried about the second one.  The frames of capped brood now have large patches that are uncapped.  I'm assuming these are cells that have hatched already, but Hive One doesn't have these large patches.  Also the few cells on the frames of brood that are uncapped in hive one look clean on the inside, but the uncapped cells in hive two now have a dark hexagon shaped ring around the bottom edge of the cells.  It doesn't look like there's anything in the cells, it just looks like a stain.  After I saw this I noticed uncapped cells that had something (I think they were pupa) in them.  They were white and soft looking like the larva, but they had distinct heads with very dark eyes.  Most of them were completely uncapped, but some of them were partly capped with a whole on the top.  I thought they were supposed to be capped before they reached this stage  :?  I know they were alive because I saw some of them moving.  Is it normal to see them like this?  Please tell me this is completely normal and I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill.  I also wondered how many SHB are too many.  I only saw one in Hive One, but a saw at least 3 to 6 on one frame in Hive two.  I couldn't get a good count because they kept ducking around the edge of the frame.  This was on one of the outside frames where there is very little activity.  I didn't notice any on the inner frames where all the bees are.  Thank you soooo much for putting up with silly beginner questions.  And I'm sorry the post is so long.
~Amanda

Sean Kelly

Did you check for American Foul Brood?  The sparse pattern, weird cappings, and uncapped pupae might be AFB.

It also might be that your queen has a bad laying pattern compared to your other hive and you might need to requeen.

The more the brood emerges from brood comb, the darker it will get.  Eventually it will even turn almost black.  So I wouldn't worry about those stains. 

Sean Kelly
"My son,  eat  thou honey,  because it is good;  and the honeycomb,  which is sweet  to thy taste"          - Proverbs 24:13

Ross

How much room do your hives have and how much is actually occupied.  If you give them more room than they can manage, you can end up with chill brood and invasions of SHB and wax moths. 
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Brian D. Bray

Quote from: Amanda on July 02, 2008, 03:56:28 PM
My two hives are about six weeks old and they both seem to be growing at about the same rate, but they look very different inside.  I'm worried about the second one.  The frames of capped brood now have large patches that are uncapped. I'm assuming these are cells that have hatched already, but Hive One doesn't have these large patches. 

Normal in a hatch out frame of brood.  The queen lays eggs in the center 1st then works her way out so the brood in the center is hatching as the brood along the outer ring are just  being capped.  The queen goes back and starts over filling the cells the worker bees have cleaned out.  Check for eggs.

 
QuoteAlso the few cells on the frames of brood that are uncapped in hive one look clean on the inside, but the uncapped cells in hive two now have a dark hexagon shaped ring around the bottom edge of the cells.  It doesn't look like there's anything in the cells, it just looks like a stain.

Sounds like the cacoons left from the hatching bees.  If it is dried, like a flake (scale) in the bottom them it might suggest the presence of a disease.

QuoteAfter I saw this I noticed uncapped cells that had something (I think they were pupa) in them.  They were white and soft looking like the larva, but they had distinct heads with very dark eyes.  Most of them were completely uncapped, but some of them were partly capped with a whole on the top. 

Partly capped is 1 of two things. Either the bees haven't finished capping those cells or the larvae in those cells have been targeted for removal due to some problem.  The later process is called hygenic behavior.  It is a good idea to always have some toothpicks or wood matchsticks in your pocket when inspecting to use for testing brood.  Black sunken cappings (maybe holed) is a sign of Foulbrood, if it;s ropey or stringy and stretches out from the cell when the toothpick is withdrawn it denotes AFB, otherwise just a black glob of residue is more likely EFB.  EFB can be treated and cured with Terrimycin, AFB cannot and must be destroyed.  Foulbrood smells like rotting meat.
If the Pupae is intact and not putrified but dry or liquid then you are most likely dealing with sacbrood or chillbrood.  Chillbrood comes from capped brood cells not kept at proper temp within the hive like in a sudden big drop in outside temps that cause the bees to re-cluster, even if loosely.  Sacbrood takes Terrimycin or queen replacement.

QuoteI thought they were supposed to be capped before they reached this stage  :?  I know they were alive because I saw some of them moving.  Is it normal to see them like this? 

Normally they are, but there are a number of things that can slow the capping of brood cells or dictate their premature opening.  If it's limited in scope let the bees handle it.  If it continues then treat it.  A few cells in each brood area is nothing to be concerned about.  The larger the problem, area and frame count, then the  more seriously the discovery should be investigated.

QuotePlease tell me this is completely normal and I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill.  I also wondered how many SHB are too many.  I only saw one in Hive One, but a saw at least 3 to 6 on one frame in Hive two.  I couldn't get a good count because they kept ducking around the edge of the frame.  This was on one of the outside frames where there is very little activity.  I didn't notice any on the inner frames where all the bees are.  Thank you soooo much for putting up with silly beginner questions.  And I'm sorry the post is so long.
~Amanda

You needed information.  Take the amount of time and space you need to ask your questions.  You'll find that often the answers are longer than the questions.
Life is a school.  What have you learned?   :brian:      The greatest danger to our society is apathy, vote in every election!

Amanda

As far as I can tell, it's not AFB or sacbrood.  I googled pictures of them both, and I don't think that's what I have.  They seem to be healthy except that they are not capped.  It could be chill brood, but it's been just as hot as usually around here.  What else could cause it?  I recently cut back the amount I was feeding them because my mom wasn't very happy with the amount of sugar we were going through.  Could that be why they aren't capping them?  They have to have nectar to make the wax, right?  I think the queens laying pattern is fine because last week that frame was almost solid capped.  I guess they've just been hatching.
~Amanda

Amanda

Well, I checked them again today, and everything seemed fine.  I didn't see anymore of the pupae.  It actually turned out to be both the best and worst inspection I've done yet. 

When I checked the first hive, I'm not sure what I did wrong but two or three bees landed on my head and were buzzing in my hair.  My dad tried to brush them out for me and knocked a bunch of hair loose from my ponytail.  Of course the bees immediately got tangled in my hair.  Then one started crawling on my face and around my eye.  I couldn't get them off of me so I asked my dad to smoke my head to see if that helped.  Of course I never have any trouble keeping the smoker lit till today. 

We got the hive put back together and re-lit the smoker before we checked the second hive.  It went much better.  I still saw a number of small hive beetles, but only on the outside frames.  Dad killed three or four of them.  I didn't see any more of the strange pupae.  We took the top brood box off to look into the bottom one, and everything looked fine there, too.  I got to see my first baby bee hatch!!!  I told my dad before we started that that was the one thing I really wanted to see.  Thanks for your help everyone.  I guess the bees know what they're doing

~Amanda